All new F-16 might ring a bell !

[A chauhan]

Lockheed Martin's new variant of its successful F-16 fighter aircraft, the F-16V, will have upgraded capabilities that might remind readers of the configuration offered by them for the IAF contest for 126 MMRCA, designated the F-16IN.

Announcing the variant at the Singapore Air Show, George Standridge, Vice President of Business Development at Lockheed Martin, said, "At the core of that offering will be the introduction and integration of an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar into existing F-16 fleets around the world – a new advanced cockpit as well as some other mission systems enhancements and avionics enhancements going forward."
Standridge said the 'V' stands for Viper, 'which is the pet name that the airplane has been given by the US Air Force'.

A company statement said, "AESA radars offer significant operational capability improvements. Lockheed Martin has developed an innovative solution to affordably retrofit this key technology into existing F-16s. The F-16V configuration is an option for new production jets and elements of the upgrade are available to most earlier-model F-16s. The "V" designation is derived from Viper, the name fighter pilots have called the F-16 from its beginnings."... full article :- All new F-16 might ring a bell | StratPost

 

[p2prada]

Which idiot will buy this overpriced hardware?

Waiting...

 

[Damian]

Why idiot and why overpriced?

My countries air forces are using F-16 and pilots are very happy with them. We got new builded Block 52+ Advanced variant, new radar upgrade might be interesting proposal.

Besides this F-16 is really good, relatively cheap, effective multirole fighter with big capabilities and is or can be integrated with wide variety of weapons... something that can't be said about Rafale, even if it is more modern construction.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Damian,

What features F-1652 have over Rafale F3 ?

 

[p2prada]

Why idiot and why overpriced?

My countries air forces are using F-16 and pilots are very happy with them. We got new builded Block 52+ Advanced variant, new radar upgrade might be interesting proposal.

Besides this F-16 is really good, relatively cheap, effective multirole fighter with big capabilities and is or can be integrated with wide variety of weapons... something that can't be said about Rafale, even if it is more modern construction.

The capability difference does not increase beyond 5 or 10%. This version is a MLU version for Block 50/52.

For eg: The Mirage-2000 (configured in 1980) that we have today and the $40Million upgrade(configured in 1997) we signed for increases capability by a much larger margin, like 50% at least, if not more. There should be a cost benefit analysis done before signing the bond.

According to Yefim Gordon, against the MKI(with first version of Bars) the regular Block 52 is 15% inferior while the Block 60 is 10% inferior in air to air capability. The old version of SH is 12% less capable while Mirage-2000-5 is 30% less capable than MKI. The AESA version of SH is more or less of the same capability, but the MKI with newer version of Bars and other avionics surpasses the SH by a decent margin. These figures are over the top of my head and may be slightly off, here and there. I don't know how he arrived at these figures though. I guess even the Malaysians gave a lesser capability rating to AESA equipped SH vs the MKM.

What I mean to say is there is a limit to what you can do with AESA if the power supplied is limited(single engine aircraft). The Block 52 is an amazing aircraft, no need to tamper with things that ain't broken. The cost benefit is very limited because the current radar on the Block 52 is pretty much the most advanced radar if compared to Mirage-2000 and Mig-29. It is different if the aircraft capability increased by 30-50%, then it makes sense. IAF rejected the Block 70(F-16IN) citing lesser aerodynamic capability. So, it's highly advanced radar fell on deaf ears here. There are some things on the F-16 that are better left unaltered.

The new radar is going to come at $5-10Million as compared to $1.5Million for APG-68 while giving a capability only a few degrees higher. Not at all useful. Btw, USAF paid $1.42Million for APG-68(v9) in 2007 and USN paid $3Million for APG-79 in 2005, both unit prices. An importer will have to pay at least twice that amount for the much vaunted AESA. At least India pays $8Million for an American engine that costs US Navy $3Million apiece. Cost was the reason why Indian Navy did not go for AESA on the Mig-29Ks because the benefits were not larger than what it is on the regular radar.

One major advantage for AESA is it is very reliable. If your country does not care for the cost of procuring it, then it is useful. If your country cares for costs, then this isn't the best option than what you already posses. If you want a much more modern aircraft then there are better options like the F3 version of Rafale with RBE-2 PESA which does not cost any less than the F-16 block 60 while giving better capability. The F-16 Block 60 costed $80Million in 2001. Rafale F3 is similar, costed ALA $80Million in 2006.

Rafale can be integrated with any weapon as long as Dassault allows it. But they are a pain most of the times. During Kargil war we installed Israeli pods and bombs. After Kargil war, Dassault supplied their own pods.

 

[Damian]

Mainly full integration with NATO standard types of weapons and ammunition. As far as I'am aware, French prefere to integrate their fighter jets with only their weapons, so no full NATO standard integration. This might not be a concern for Frence, maybe not even for India, but for example my country preffered cheaper, more avaiable fighter with full NATO weapons and comm systems integration. It would not be a really nice thing for us to pay huge money for only french made weapons and ammunition.

Of course Rafale is preatty good fighter jet, probably better in manouverability than F-16, but on the other hand F-16 avionics, weapons are not worse than Rafale.

It's just that F-16 is not that old, and obsolete as some might think.

For example my countries air forces ordered a completely new defensive suite for our F-16's, AIDEWS, however due to some problems, system is yet not integrated with our fighter jets if I remember correct, and we still need to wait for it, but as You can see, plenty of new things can be integrated with F-16 making it still very potent multirole fighter.

@P2P, I agree, it might be just more atractive proposal for F-16 users, than new buyers, that's all. And as You said, Dassault is pain in the ass when it comes to weapon systems integration, they like to propose their own systems, but there are not many of them and not nececary better than NATO standard... made in USA.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Lockheed Martin · Lockheed Martin's Fighting Falcon Evolves With New F-16V

SINGAPORE, Feb. 15, 2012 – Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] unveiled a new version of the F-16 today at the Singapore Airshow. The F-16V will feature enhancements including an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an upgraded mission computer and architecture, and improvements to the cockpit – all capabilities identified by the U.S. Air Force and several international customers for future improvements.

 

[Drsomnath999]

As far as I'am aware, French prefere to integrate their fighter jets with only their weapons, so no full NATO standard integration.

This might not be a concern for Frence, maybe not even for India, but for example my country preffered cheaper, more avaiable fighter with full NATO weapons and comm systems integration. It would not be a really nice thing for us to pay huge money for only french made weapons and ammunition.

.

Sir
i would like to inform u that french are studying to integrate a foreign weapon in RAFALE

BRIMSTONE UNDER STUDY FOR RAFALE

Combat Aircraft Monthly ; June 2012:

CREDIT: OLYBRIUS
THANK U MATE FOR THE INFO


thats not all SIR ,india can also integrate foreign weapons in rafale & french have stated they have no problem

Of course Rafale is preatty good fighter jet, probably better in manouverability than F-16, but on the other hand F-16 avionics, weapons are not worse than Rafale
It's just that F-16 is not that old, and obsolete as some might think.

I agree F16 is a great jet as it is one the most succesful exported fighter jets till date now
But sir i clearly want to say RAFALE" avionics sensor (RBE 2 / FSO / RECO-NG/ DAMOCLES) suite & (SPECTRA) ECM are way ahead that F16 .
I am not biased/fanboyic but it is a fact.
ofcourse US litening targeting pod is also good

Regarding weapon : may be comparable to rafale but no way superior.
.

 

[p2prada]

Mainly full integration with NATO standard types of weapons and ammunition. As far as I'am aware, French prefere to integrate their fighter jets with only their weapons, so no full NATO standard integration. This might not be a concern for Frence, maybe not even for India, but for example my country preffered cheaper, more avaiable fighter with full NATO weapons and comm systems integration. It would not be a really nice thing for us to pay huge money for only french made weapons and ammunition.

Of course Rafale is preatty good fighter jet, probably better in manouverability than F-16, but on the other hand F-16 avionics, weapons are not worse than Rafale.

It's just that F-16 is not that old, and obsolete as some might think.

For example my countries air forces ordered a completely new defensive suite for our F-16's, AIDEWS, however due to some problems, system is yet not integrated with our fighter jets if I remember correct, and we still need to wait for it, but as You can see, plenty of new things can be integrated with F-16 making it still very potent multirole fighter.

@P2P, I agree, it might be just more atractive proposal for F-16 users, than new buyers, that's all. And as You said, Dassault is pain in the ass when it comes to weapon systems integration, they like to propose their own systems, but there are not many of them and not nececary better than NATO standard... made in USA.

For small orders and a small fleet, Russian and American systems are the best. American systems are even better because the weapons are purchased in bulk for the US armed forces as compared to Russia who places small orders.

French weapons are for customers who want to wear Armani and eat Caviar. Without numbers it is a losing prospect as long as they allow other weapons and other small part supplies like transformers, wires etc from non French sources. The French make for $100 and sell for $1000.

As for F-16, all it's avionics are good. All I'm against in this new upgrade is the AESA. All bang, no buck.

Btw, there is a generation gap when it comes to some key elements on Rafale as compared to F-16. Again, depends on how much the customer wants to spend, so it is not a big deal for an air force like Poland's.

What's more pissing off is the F-35 will cost as much as a F-16 Block 60. It makes the entire effort worthless.

 

[Damian]

Sir
i would like to inform u that french are studying to integrate a foreign weapon in RAFALE

Surprising knowing mentality of French.

thats not all SIR ,india can also integrate foreign weapons in rafale & french have stated they have no problem

Even more surprising.

I agree F16 is a great jet as it is one the most succesful exported fighter jets till date now
But sir i clearly want to say RAFALE" avionics sensor (RBE 2 / FSO / RECO-NG/ DAMOCLES) suite & (SPECTRA) ECM are way ahead that F16 .
I am not biased/fanboyic but it is a fact.
ofcourse US litening targeting pod is also good

Regarding weapon : may be comparable to rafale but no way superior.

1) I agree that Rafale sensors might be superior to F-16 ones. However let's be clear, Rafale sensors are allready a thing of the past in reality, F-22A allready made a step ahead (especially it's AESA radar that is something... different than typically used AESA as this one proposed for F-16V) and even further step was made with F-35 and it's DAS system.

2) I do not agree that US made weapon used on F-16 are not better than these ones used on Rafale. IMHO AIM-120D is currently the best BVR missile, while AIM-9X Block II have some interesting capabilities mentioned, if I remember correctly, like capability to attack surface targets besides air targets.

 

[p2prada]

1) I agree that Rafale sensors might be superior to F-16 ones. However let's be clear, Rafale sensors are allready a thing of the past in reality, F-22A allready made a step ahead (especially it's AESA radar that is something... different than typically used AESA as this one proposed for F-16V) and even further step was made with F-35 and it's DAS system.

On the contrary, the only aircraft which will surpass Rafale in avionics will be the F-35. Rafale is already ahead of the F-22. F-22 is rigged purely for air to air. We don't know what major components it has that will never be revealed, but it's air to ground and recce capability is definitely inferior to the Rafale. F-22 does not even have data links apart from a regular data link that allows not more than 4 fighters to communicate. RBE-2AA is operational today. Btw, the Danish gave a rating of 6.97 for F-35 and 6.95 for Rafale during evaluations. Just 0.02 points difference.

F-22s AESA is a beast. Can't put that on any other aircraft except for F-15 or Su-30. Mig-31s radar is a bigger beast, too bad the aircraft itself is not as good. F-22 has different, but overwhelming advantages like low RCS and powerful engines. It is really the Obj-195 of the fighter world, maybe even better, because you can at least see the Obj-195 while it kills you.

Once the F-35 hits the shelves, no aircraft in the world will compare, not the F-22, not the Rafale, not the PAKFA or the J-20. Only MLUs of the other aircraft and future aircraft like the Russian LMFI, or Indian AMCA or Chinese J-XX may compare, but by then F-35 will undergo it's own MLU.

French weapons are not superior to the Americans ones. Meteor may bring parity in air to air while the AASM need to be able to handle much higher capacity bombs, including 1000Kg. They have quite a distance to travel, but what they have is very reliable. Rafale can launch 6 LGBs against 6 different ground targets at the same time while coming in very low. No aircraft can do that. Rafale demonstrated that against 4 tanks in Libya, killed 4 with direct hits using 250Kg bombs.

The Aim-9x with air to ground capability is useless in military applications IMHO. They have better stuff for it. They tested it on motor boats on water. I guess they want to use it to kill drug smugglers from Mexico.

What's more interesting is they are giving the Aim-9X a submarine launch capability. That will help them kill helicopters in shallow waters.

 

[Damian]

On the contrary, the only aircraft which will surpass Rafale in avionics will be the F-35. Rafale is already ahead of the F-22. F-22 is rigged purely for air to air. We don't know what major components it has that will never be revealed, but it's air to ground and recce capability is definitely inferior to the Rafale. F-22 does not even have data links apart from a regular data link that allows not more than 4 fighters to communicate. RBE-2AA is operational today. Btw, the Danish gave a rating of 6.97 for F-35 and 6.95 for Rafale during evaluations. Just 0.02 points difference.

F-22s AESA is a beast. Can't put that on any other aircraft except for F-15 or Su-30. Mig-31s radar is a bigger beast, too bad the aircraft itself is not as good. F-22 has different, but overwhelming advantages like low RCS and powerful engines. It is really the Obj-195 of the fighter world, maybe even better, because you can at least see the Obj-195 while it kills you.

You know that F-22A have space in it's... "hull" (?) for a sensor suite from F-35? or even better? Like side radar antennas? Besides this F-22 will undergo an upgrade program (Increment 3.0 is allready in works? Increment 3.1 and 3.2 should arrive soon) and we really do not know real capabilities of F-22, Yanks like to keep many things in secret. And it goes to their advantage if others think that F-22 is somehwat inferior, remember that.

Once the F-35 hits the shelves, no aircraft in the world will compare, not the F-22, not the Rafale, not the PAKFA or the J-20. Only MLUs of the other aircraft and future aircraft like the Russian LMFI, or Indian AMCA or Chinese J-XX may compare, but by then F-35 will undergo it's own MLU.

I heard a rumors that recent tests says that F-35 is also very capable in dogfight contrary to some opinions.

The Aim-9x with air to ground capability is useless in military applications IMHO. They have better stuff for it. They tested it on motor boats on water. I guess they want to use it to kill drug smugglers from Mexico.

Such capability might be usefull in emergency... You know, it is like with condom, better have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

What's more interesting is they are giving the Aim-9X a submarine launch capability. That will help them kill helicopters in shallow waters.

This is interesting, a completely new approach to solve a problem.

 

[ice berg]

Seems you have more faith in f-35s than many countries. No idea why you think it is better than F-22, PAKFA, J20 etc.

Not even US has claimed that f-35 is better than f-22.

 

[Damian]

Because it depends what is discussed. Stealth and manouverability of F-35 might be worser than F-22, on the other hand at least now, F-35 have superior avionics that anything else.

IMHO both will greatly complement each other, just like F-15 and F-16.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Surprising knowing mentality of French.

well it has got nothing to do with mentality but improve capabilties & more flexible weapons system

Even more surprising.

well absolutely nothing to be surprised ,money talks everything .

1) I agree that Rafale sensors might be superior to F-16 ones. However let's be clear, Rafale sensors are allready a thing of the past in reality, F-22A allready made a step ahead (especially it's AESA radar that is something... different than typically used AESA as this one proposed for F-16V) and even further step was made with F-35 and it's DAS system.

Sir '
this is absolutely unfair we were comparing F16 & rafale but u added F22 & F35 which is totally off topic

but sorry sir u r absolutely wrong on this

," Rafale sensors are allready a thing of the past in reality"

newer upgrades are available for every avionics ,sensor suite
1) FSO would be upgraded FSO IT ,even french SOFRADIR supplies IIR seekers to US

2) RBE 2 radar would have much improved GaaN modules , SATcom capabilty but i still beleive it is inferior to US aesa radar.

3) AREOS RECO NG :with much adavnced capabilty than predecessor

4)DAMOCLES XF new upgraded variant of it's much highly successful variant damocles

5) Rafale has 5th gen system core like F22 but inferior to F35



6)of course who can miss out SPECTRA sytem

one important thing i like to say in future variant DDM NG would have future directional based infra red counter measures (DIRCM) like laser to destroy
the electro optical seeker in AIM 9x & python 5 which cant be counter by flares

Rafale Upgrade Ready in 2012

exactly like FLASH DIRCM system in A 400m but a smaller variant would be installed

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Aerospace/LandJoint_Products_Optronic_self-protection_LWR/

2) I do not agree that US made weapon used on F-16 are not better than these ones used on Rafale. IMHO AIM-120D is currently the best BVR missile, while AIM-9X Block II have some interesting capabilities mentioned, if I remember correctly, like capability to attack surface targets besides air targets.

well may be correct but does F16 of any country is armed with AIM 120 D , i mean has the AMERICANS sold it to any country till now?

AIR to AIR missiles : AIM 120d is good no doubt about it but Meteor & other nations ram jet BVRAAMS are also closing the gap
AIM9x : hmm correct it's FPA seeker is one of the best & only python 5 can be best compare to it . But mica IR has range advantage .

 

[p2prada]

You know that F-22A have space in it's... "hull" (?) for a sensor suite from F-35? or even better? Like side radar antennas? Besides this F-22 will undergo an upgrade program (Increment 3.0 is allready in works? Increment 3.1 and 3.2 should arrive soon) and we really do not know real capabilities of F-22, Yanks like to keep many things in secret. And it goes to their advantage if others think that F-22 is somehwat inferior, remember that.

At first they said if F-22 ever becomes multirole then it will be inferior to the F-35 in all roles except all air to air related ones. Still internal payload is quite similar when it comes to carrying bombs.

Yeah. F-22 has space for side arrays, but they did not put it the first time because of costs. Quite justified. Hull is called fuselage in aircraft.

F-22 has only one role, dominate the skies, all other roles are secondary. For F-35 all other roles are primary while air to air role is secondary. So, the F-35 has to be better at those specific roles.

Now if they develop the FB-22 strike aircraft like the F-15E strike eagle, there would be some very specific advantages for the F-22. It will get heavy lift capability. Costs are not justified though.

I heard a rumors that recent tests says that F-35 is also very capable in dogfight contrary to some opinions.

Not rumours. At 50% fuel, and carrying weapons internally, the F-35 will perform better than a clean F-16 with 50% fuel in pretty much every aspect. It is the truth. At 50% fuel, the F-35 will fly farther than the F-16 at 50%. The only flaw is it cannot carry a lot of weapons internally, which is a problem. External weapons will compromise stealth by a certain level. For a strike 5th gen aircraft, internal payload is very important. Perhaps why J-20 is so big.

Such capability might be usefull in emergency... You know, it is like with condom, better have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

According to developers, if the SH releases all it's bombs and still needs more, it can fire the Aim-9x.

 

[p2prada]

Seems you have more faith in f-35s than many countries. No idea why you think it is better than F-22, PAKFA, J20 etc.

Not even US has claimed that f-35 is better than f-22.

Only in strike roles. I am not sure about J-20 or PAKFA though. Aerodynamic advantages may be with the other two, but avionics advantage will be with F-35.