Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

^^Small correction Indian T-90's are not 840hp but 1000hp.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2004/01/08...0806531200.htm

What about the new Russian tank which is being readied, with a 155mm barrel? I guess a T-90 chassis with a 155mm barrel.

well the tank may have all the latest gizmos but the truth is the army still prefers imported Junk to indegenious equipment with all the latest gizmos this tank has, i don't c how this is better then the Arjun Tank? I still feel the Arjun is a more newer and better Tank then the T-90S it has better Mobility, more accurate firepower ,and can take a hell lot of punishment before dishing out its own it may be heavy but that's not affecting its performance IN ANY WAY!! but still the army is not satisfied they are just creating cock and bull story of some non- existant problems when there own regiment which operates the Arjun swear by its standerd. This is clearly russian lobby @ work here to fill there own pockets 15 years of hard research down the drain and if v don't support the Arjun Project v will be back to square 1

Hey guys i found this PDF check out the specs and abilities of the Arjun hope this satisfies some peoples claims that it is junk http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1...-Report-23.pdf

Lets just wait for the Arjun/T-90 trials before we get critical.

Thats the problem vladimir79
there is'nt going to be any trials the army is jus dragging the matter to avoid these trails, there never will be any trails

T-90S MBT's Combat Effectiveness Flowcharts

Source: TRISHUL: T-90S MBT's Combat Effectiveness Flowcharts

Comparison with PT-76 and T-72, 2 obsolete tanks. Also, the combat potential does not list the parameters considered, and the Merkava-4 does not feature in that graph.

Army overhauls T-90 tanks indigenously

New Delhi, November 3

In a move that will ensure fast deployment of tanks, the Indian Army’s base workshop has carried out the first-ever overhaul of the Russian-built T-90 tanks, which form the frontline of the attack formations.

This will be a major step in sustaining the readiness of T-90 fleet of the Army, said Lt Gen Vinay Sharma, Master General Ordnance, as the first such overhauled tank rolled out of the 505 Army base repair workshop. Lt Gen AKS Chandele, DG EME, and Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, DG mechanised forces, were present when the first tank was handed back to the Army, a spokesperson said.

A team of three officers and 26 technicians trained in India and abroad completed the overhaul of the first tank in 214 days. The overhaul carried out at a cost of Rs 4 crore gives a life extension of about 15 years to the tank and will save Rs 14 crore to the exchequer which would have been the additional cost of sending the tank to Russia getting the overhaul done.
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation

WHAT WE SHOULD REALIZE: It may sound like an anti climax but if we want to be logical then the choise of T-90S as the MAIN MBT of AI should be taken as the most appropriate one. The term "better" is a relative term and often illusionary. When we consider the type of tanks that AI may have to face in comming 10 years its very unlikely that any of them will have any significant edge over indian T 90S even in their most developed forms. Even it should be remembered that the topography of northern border will not allow a deployment of any heavy tanks by chinese side. So an MBT of 60 ton class has a very very less chance of engagement in the northern bordar.So at best we will have to face chinese T 72,s or T 80's & their clones. Now in the western front, threat perceptions will not be qualitativey much different compared to that in northern front ( in effective sense). Pakistani al zarrar's are just not enough against T 72s so lets not talk about T 90S. Only serious threat posed by pakistani side will be their T-80's. Its very hard to believe that They will be better than T-90S of AI but will continue to develope with better armour and weapons so will our T-90S. We dont have unlimited resource. There are several key sectors for unpradation and improvement. So we need enough resource for that. Just a true world class net centric capability will see a much weaker tank breaking the back of a T - 80's and that needs a huge investment in a wide range of niche areas. We really dont need a big force of a very very heavy tank regiment to impert a deep penetrating and rapib blow into pakistani soil.
A 60 ton class Arjun will requir a massive modernization of our basic infrastructures which will need several million $$s. I am not down playing a need for such modernization but have to set our priorities correctly. Its beyond any doubt that a step by step upgradation will make our Arjun a world beater but currently we dont need such a massive beast as a main armour force. Around 300 of Arjun will be enough to to produce enough crushing thrust through the rajasthan area to split pakitan in to two halves.

WHAT OUR MEDIA SHOULD REALIZE: This precarious situation currently prevailing in indian armour selection is again not due to the incompetence of DRDO but a naked show of our improper planning and a shifting requiremental demands placed by AI. Are we here to fool ourselves thinking that DRDO made Arjun without consulting AI? Did'nt AI knew about the weight of Arjun when it was being built? Did'nt they realize that a bigger tank with much better armour and weapon system will cost significantly more than a lighter version?
Why then the army is raising these silly questions after 2 decades? ---- Media should try to learn a bit more in the technological front before they frawn upon DRDO for making an unsuitable dud.

WHAT AI SHOULD REALIZE : Developing high tech militery products indigenously is not like making a high tech bridge where 100% foreign cooperation is always available at your door step. In defence indigenization several unforseeable troubles have to raise from changing ecopolitical perspectives in the globe. Delays are a charactatistic feature of such projects & that is irrespective of their origin. Especially when a relatively new nuke power is trying to project her power to the world and trying to establish a technological edge over its other nuke peers in conventional front things are bound to become much more critical.While planning Indian army should strike a logical balance between its immidiate need for the maintainance for its force level and its long term quest to establish a technological edge over its enemy. Exactly this is where Indian Army shown immaturity until now. What AI should not do is a desparate attemp to down grade Arjun to stop its induction as a replacement of T-90S. It is not only a blatent lie but also a denegration for indian indigineous efferts and for Indian Army's planning body as well.They can go for around 300
Arjuns and ask DRDO for upgradation of the Arjun fleet without adding to the number. Whereas on the other hand collaborate with foreign firms to create a new genaration tank for future. As justly suggested by israeli experts that a futuritic tank basesd on the present Arjun design will be most effective from indian point of view ( both in time & economical terms.) but may be the sheer ego of AI is forcing it to say a big "NO" even to this.

FINAL WORDS: A mistake made cannot be rectified by making another mistake. With
due respect to Arjun & DRDO for making such a world class tank we must understand that only a properly planned and most effective use of tax payers wealth will give india the required edge. Currently 300 odd Arjun tank will be enough for IA's requiment ( look at the number of 60 ton tanks available with other world leaders). So it will be unwise to block the ongoing T-90S deal with russia as this will waste more money and time wich will be again a mistake and will cost our national security.

Rage, from this comparison, the Al-Khalid's and the T-90S's operation and armament features seem more or less equal, though the Al-Khalid is not combat proven from what i know..

Small correction in the above post, T90s used by india is of 1000BHP (if my sources are correct)

frankly i dont see those test to happen any sooner, those test should have been conducted in june 2009, but IA would have not like to put in T90 tanks against Arjun which were tested in Rajasthan for almost 20 years.

That's right. But the difference is, that while Pakistan operates 220 of these (as of mid-2009) and India operates over 300 of the T-90S's, Pakistan plans to procure the Al-Khalids in large numbers as the future mainstay of its Armoured Corps, while India is slated to, and has already begun producing 1330 T-90M's from knock-down kits to be put (cumulatively) into active service by 2020. The first batch of some 10-12 T-90's rolled out from Avadhi in August, as is visible from this thread.

The Khalid is also heavily based on the Chinese T-90 II, which is a mish-mash of several Soviet tank designs, and demonstrated disappointing performance with its powerplant in China's northern arid conditions and Pakistan's harsh desert climate (ergo the KMDB diesel engine supplied by the design bureau of Ukraine).

In technical terms, the Indian T-90S is actually superior to the Russian T-90S, in that it, from the Moscow Defense Brief, "has a new welded turret, a 1000 hp V-92S2 engine (compared to the 840 hp V-84MS engine on the old T-90), and the Essa night sight with a French-made Catherine-FC thermal camera. For the implementation of this contract, all engineering drawings were transferred to CAD software and the production process at UVZ was modernized significantly."

Apparently, and this is news to me, the Shtora EOCMDAS was also part of a section of the earlier T-90 S Bhishma. It was bought in a separate shipment, in a little-publicized contrakt, from Belarus and retrofitted onto a number of the Bhishma (which is why even earlier pics of the T-90S Bhishma cause confusion as they're conspicuous by the absence of two IR lights adjacent to the turret). Later versions of the T-90S were, ofcourse fitted with the SAAB LEDS-150 APS suites, which offers a 'hard-kill' capability, in addition to the 'soft kill' of the Shtora, and also reduces fratricide by launching counter-projectiles in a blast pattern that is parallel to the line of flight, as opposed to masquerading strobe lights as a guidance beacon in a 'soft kill' system or executing a hail of tungsten balls in other 'hard kill' systems. See this for instance:

TRISHUL: IDAS For Indian T-90 MBTs Selected


Apparently, "1,657 systems have been ordered", which means that some will likely be fitted onto light and medium kombat vehicles, or retrofitted onto a number of the T-90 S Bhishmas, probably the ones without the Shtora-1 active protektion suites.


Additionally, the T-90S's main gun is also complete with the 9M119 Refleks (AT-11 Sniper) ATGM capability, modified to allow the Bhishma to use the latest developments in 125mm ammunition- including long-rod APFSDSDU and APFSDS-T rounds {in addition to HEAT-FS and HE-FRAG rounds}. (The Pakistani MBT can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS, in addition to the 125 mm Pakistanie-made Naiza DU round {armor penetration: 550 mm in rolled homogenous armour at 2 km.} ). To give you an example of how this compares: the Ukraine-made 125mm Vitiaz round penetrates ~760mm at 2km.; the Russian 125mm BM-46 "Svinets" DU, developed in 91, penetrates 650 mm at 2km. The Refleks missile, on the other hand, is designed to penetrate ~950 mm in rolled homogenous armour, and can also engage low-flying targets, at an effective range of 100 m to 6 km.

T-90s is better than M1 Abrams
T90 and T72 have at-11 and Invar-m projectiles (totally immune to active and passive jamming) at ranges from 5-6km with nearly 100% first round hit probability... M1a2 does not have any protection against ATGMs, no active protection system, just smoke grenades. T90 on the other hand has advance ARENA active protection system designed to engage anything from TOW to hellfire missiles and top attacking varients of both.. The Gun on the T90 (2a46m2) is more powerful than the US 45 calibre m256. The russian 47 calibre 125mm gun provides much higher muzzle velocity than the m256, infact the only western gun comparable to this is the l-55 (55 calibre) german 120mm gun fitted on leo-2a6. when the US got there hands on a russian T-72B in 1997, they found it to be immune to all munitions and ATGMs, thanks to its kontakt 5 heavy era armour (designed to take hits from sabot rounds, thermobaric weapons even tandem warheads) The so called silver bullet is in reality a glass bullet against soviet armour. That lead to the development of the M829a2 and the very recent M829a3 which COULD penetrate kontakt 5 armour- hence all 80s gen russian soviet tanks. BAre in mind kontakt-5 is no longer the latest russian era plate, they are being replaced now with relikt, era, new generation which is said to be 5 times more effective than the late 80s designed Kontakt 5, i seriously doubt any US or NATO munitions can penetrate that...

Not to mention the New T-95 tank- totally new designe which should enter service in 2011-2012. Not much info is given about it (since russia is actually good at keeping secrets) and there isnt any pictures (apart from a poor photograph showing a covered up tank transported by a tank transporter).
Russia will have two different types of tanks in service, T-95, advance tank for elite units, and T90, the main bulkhead of russian tank force.