Dutch ban on halal and kosher meat

pankaj nema

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You guys are talking of scientific principles and what not You are not getting it

This new rule in not about animal rights or preventing pain to animals .It is about needling Muslims

The Muslim community is being needled because gets provoked easily and hits the street for every thing

Whether it is a new novel or a new film about Islam ,Cartoons ,Ban on Burqa ,Ban on Minarets in Mosques and now this ban on halal meat

It is all about provoking Muslims and then having a showdown
 

LurkerBaba

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Pork was taken to be an unhealthy animal since it roamed around free and eat unmentionable things.

One has to see pigs eating stuff around slums to get a revulsion to this type of an unhealthy pork.

Porks raised in hygienic conditions are a different kettle of fish.
The dietary laws were probably made because of Pigs rolling in the mud etc. But Pigs don't have sweat glands, and thus need to roll in the mud to keep themselves cool ! Pigs are infact the cleanest animals !
 

Ray

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It is believed that blood contains bacteria and viruses and so the blood has to be drained.

It is your choice!
 

pankaj nema

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It is basically a clash of civilisations

Western countries ie Europe and USA together are economically , Militarily and Technologically far stronger than ALL Islamic countries

So they want to rub it in

Whether it is bombing Iraq , Aghanistan and Now Libya ,Sanctions on Iran or harrassing Muslims at airports , it is all the same

Both Muslims and the Christian west know it . It is all about showing off your POWER
 

Ray

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The dietary laws were probably made because of Pigs rolling in the mud etc. But Pigs don't have sweat glands, and thus need to roll in the mud to keep themselves cool ! Pigs are infact the cleanest animals !
Maybe so, but then the sight of pigs eating you know what around slums if enough to make one detest the idea of eating pigs.

I have raised Yorkshire pigs under scientific conditions and it was fine.

I was denied having a piglet as a pet by my CO since he said that he has never heard of a person having a piglet as a pet, notwithstanding my earnest plea that Generals can have lapdogs, but mere mortals like me could only afford having a lap-pig!!

:rofl:
 

Rahul Singh

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Slaughtering the Goat in HALAL style because it drains blood out! Ridicules! Heart doesn't dies immediately when throat is slitted, it continues pumping blood for quite sometime and it doesn't only pump it in upward direction (towards head) but as well towards lower organs too. So, even if a goal is HALAL it will have considerable amount of blood in its lower section and that will coagulate, if not removed immediately by butchering and washing. I remember seeing a slaughtered goat (in Zhataka style) hanging up-side down with its legs attached to top. May be they were using gravitational force to drain the blood out. Force of Gravity is still prevalent for some.
 
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LurkerBaba

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It is believed that blood contains bacteria and viruses and so the blood has to be drained.

It is your choice!
Blood also contain proteins, glucose and amino acids. If it was full of bacteria and viruses we would have died long ago !


I was denied having a piglet as a pet by my CO since he said that he has never heard of a person having a piglet as a pet, notwithstanding my earnest plea that Generals can have lapdogs, but mere mortals like me could only afford having a lap-pig!!
:eek::pound:
 
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AOE

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It is believed that blood contains bacteria and viruses and so the blood has to be drained.

It is your choice!
Properly cooking meat will generally eliminate that problem.
 

Yusuf

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Slaughtering the Goat in HALAL style because it drains blood out! Ridicules! Heart doesn't dies immediately when throat is slitted, it continues pumping blood for quite sometime and it doesn't only pump it in upward direction (towards head) but as well towards lower organs too. So, even if a goal is HALAL it will have considerable amount of blood in its lower section and that will coagulate, if not removed immediately by butchering and washing. I remember seeing a slaughtered goat (in Zhataka style) hanging up-side down with its legs attached to top. May be they were using gravitational force to drain the blood out. Force of Gravity is still prevalent for some.
The animal is hung upside down to drain the blood after it's throat is slit. The animal is dead once the wind pipe is cut and it's not able to breathe. Gravity sure does come into play once it is hung upside down and drains all the blood.
 

Yusuf

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Call it Islamic or not, same method is followed all over the world in slaughterhouses.

This is the process in US slaughterhouse.

Cattle (mostly steers and heifers, some cows, and even fewer bulls) are received by truck or rail from a ranch, farm, or feedlot.
Cattle are herded into holding pens.
Cattle are rendered unconscious by applying an electric shock of 300 volts and 2 amps to the back of the head, effectively stunning the animal, or by use of a captive bolt pistol to the front of the cow's head (a pneumatic or cartridge-fired captive bolt). Swine can be rendered unconscious by CO2/inert gas stunning. (This step is prohibited under strict application of Halal and Kashrut codes.)
Animals are hung upside down by both of their hind legs on the processing line.
The carotid artery and jugular vein are severed with a knife, blood drains, causing death through exsanguination.
The head is removed, as well as front and rear feet. Prior to hide removal, care is taken to cut around the digestive tract to prevent fecal contamination later in the process.
The hide/skin is removed by down pullers, side pullers and fisting off the pelt (sheep and goats). Hides can also be removed by laying the carcase on a cradle and skinning with a knife.
The internal organs are removed and inspected for internal parasites and signs of disease. The viscera are separated for inspection from the heart and lungs, referred to as the "pluck." Livers are separated for inspection, tongues are dropped or removed from the head, and the head is sent down the line on the head hooks or head racks for inspection of the lymph nodes for signs of systemic disease.
The carcase is inspected by a government inspector for safety. (This inspection is performed by the Food Safety Inspection Service in the U.S., and Canadian Food Inspection Agency in Canada.)
Carcases are subjected to intervention to reduce levels of bacteria. Common interventions are steam, hot water, and organic acids.
Carcases (typically cattle and sheep only) can be electrically stimulated to improve meat tenderness.
Carcases are chilled to prevent the growth of microorganisms and to reduce meat deterioration while the meat awaits distribution.
The chilled carcase is broken down into primal cuts and subprimals for boxed meat unless customer specifies for intact sides of meat. Beef and horse carcases are always split in half and then quartered, pork is split into sides only and goat/veal/mutton and lamb is left whole
The remaining carcase may be further processed to extract any residual traces of meat, usually termed advanced meat recovery or mechanically separated meat, which may be used for human or animal consumption.
Waste materials such as bone, lard or tallow, are sent to a rendering plant. Also, lard and tallow can be used for the production of biodiesel or heating oil.
The wastewater, consisting of blood and fecal matter, generated by the slaughtering process is sent to a waste water treatment plant.
The meat is transported to distribution centers that then distribute to retail markets.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse


I don't know how this new law is directed at Muslims or Jews. Why should both communities be agitated with it is not understood or just that the govt there has not explained the law to them.
 

Rahul Singh

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The animal is hung upside down to drain the blood after it's throat is slit. The animal is dead once the wind pipe is cut and it's not able to breathe. Gravity sure does come into play once it is hung upside down and drains all the blood.
Slitting wind pipe doesn't kills anyone immediately, depending upon toughness of the animal, one stays alive for 15 seconds to a minute or even more. No wonder, why a chicken after getting its throat slitted is thrown into a drum and one listens to the music for about a minute. Guess who does not go to vegetable market and how many vegetable markets lacks Halal stalls?
 

Yusuf

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The swift cutting of vessels of the neck disconnects the flow of blood to the nerve of the brain responsible for pain. Thus the animal does not feel pain. While dying, the animal struggles, writhers, shakes and kicks, not due to pain, but due to the contraction and relaxation of the muscles defecient in blood and due to the flow of blood out of the body.
 

Rahul Singh

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Nerve cells/Spinal nervs are inclosed under spine and runs all the way upto head from different organs. As far as i know in HALAH style only veins and pipe is slitted, not spine bone/ neck bone (if not, then neck will virtually fall as nothing will remain attached, which is not the case) and so remains the nerve cells (which sends signals through electronic pulses) intact and they continue to communicate through electronic signals until blood in the brain and rest of the becomes insufficient/useless for functions. And it takes time which depends.
 

LurkerBaba

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The swift cutting of vessels of the neck disconnects the flow of blood to the nerve of the brain responsible for pain. Thus the animal does not feel pain. While dying, the animal struggles, writhers, shakes and kicks, not due to pain, but due to the contraction and relaxation of the muscles defecient in blood and due to the flow of blood out of the body.
Nerve fibers carry signals at a speed of 10m/s. There will be immense pain before blood flow to the brain is finally cut off (which will take a couple of minutes)
 

Yusuf

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Nerve fibers carry signals at a speed of 10m/s. There will be immense pain before blood flow to the brain is finally cut off (which will take a couple of minutes)
Only an expert could clarify this for us.
Fact remains that animals are slaughtered by slitting ultimately with or without stunning.
 

LurkerBaba

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Only an expert could clarify this for us.
Halal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2003, the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), an independent advisory group, concluded that the way halal and kosher meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals and should be banned immediately. FAWC argued that cattle required up to two minutes to bleed to death when such means are employed. The Chairperson of FAWC at the time, Judy MacArthur Clark, added, "this is a major incision into the animal and to say that it doesn't suffer is quite ridiculous."

Call it Islamic or not, same method is followed all over the world in slaughterhouses.


This is the process in US slaughterhouse.

Cattle (mostly steers and heifers, some cows, and even fewer bulls) are received by truck or rail from a ranch, farm, or feedlot.
Cattle are herded into holding pens.
Cattle are rendered unconscious by applying an electric shock of 300 volts and 2 amps to the back of the head, effectively stunning the animal, or by use of a captive bolt pistol to the front of the cow's head (a pneumatic or cartridge-fired captive bolt). Swine can be rendered unconscious by CO2/inert gas stunning. (This step is prohibited under strict application of Halal and Kashrut codes.)
Preventing the animal from getting stunned is a major difference.

Fact remains that animals are slaughtered by slitting ultimately with or without stunning.
I'm not exactly an animal welfare guy :D. All I'm saying is Halal is not really more scientific than other methods, or less painful. It's just a religious practice
 
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LurkerBaba

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No the bolder part that you have quoted me applies only to CO2 stunning as that kills the animal on it's own.
Cattle are rendered unconscious by applying an electric shock of 300 volts and 2 amps to the back of the head, effectively stunning the animal, or by use of a captive bolt pistol to the front of the cow's head (a pneumatic or cartridge-fired captive bolt). Swine can be rendered unconscious by CO2/inert gas stunning
Either way, the animal is being made completely unconscious (before the killing blow) by using industrial means
 
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Yusuf

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Either way, the animal is being made completely unconscious (before the killing blow) by using industrial means
Like i said earlier, stunning is acceptable. It is Halal except stubbing by CO2.
 

LurkerBaba

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Like i said earlier, stunning is acceptable. It is Halal except stubbing by CO2.
Then it changes the whole debate entirely. If the animal has been made unconscious, it won't feel pain no matter how it's killed
 
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