Should JnK map be redrawn within india?

Should JnK map be redrawn within india


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nrupatunga

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Folks, should JnK be redrawn along ethnic/religious lines??

The debate has been re-initiated when congress felt that ladakh may need to be made a union territory. Some say this will weaken our case on JnK. If so how??

If am not wrong, bjp and congress(now) are for it. NC is also for it(?), so except pdp which opposes this most of them are for it or certainly not against it.

Apart form the political aspects, how will the strategic/military aspects be impacted??

Please lets discuss on this issue. What are the pros and cons of this??

===============

@Yusuf @Ray @bennedose @pmaitra @Virendra @Razor

any JnK folks on DFI??
 
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nrupatunga

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UT status to Ladakah is being discussed, says Cong
Congress today said the issue of granting Union Territory status to Ladakah is being discussed "from the developmental dimension".

"I think that is looking more from the developmental dimension. It is not a question of dividing. That is one demand which has been there for a long time and perhaps that will be discussed"

"There is always a democratic and inclusive way to take a decision which has sensitive dimensions to it," party spokesman Anand Sharma said.

He was asked at the party briefing whether Congress wants to declare Ladakh, which is part of Jammu and Kashmir, to be Union Territory.
 

nrupatunga

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Congress's poll gimmick in J&K, seeks UT status for Ladakh
Amid ongoing Lok Sabha election, the Congress has come up with a demand to give Ladakh, a part of Jammu & Kashmir, the status of Union Territory.

The party has incorporated this demand into its poll manifesto for Ladakh region.

Reacting to this PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti has said that the move of Congress, a partner of National Conference-led Sate Government, is like another partition of India.

"Such a move will not only divide Jammu and Kashmir, but will also dilute the special status that the state enjoys under Article 370 of the constitution," PDP president Mehbooba Mufti said.

The demand for a Union Territory status is part of Congress manifesto for 2014 parliamentary polls for Ladakh which mentions that the party "stands for the struggle for the Union Territory status to Ladakh."

The manifesto was released by the party during an election rally held in support of its candidate for Ladakh Parliamentary seat, Tsering Samphel, at Leh yesterday, where senior party leader and state cabinet minister Nawang Rigzin Jora was present.
If this move will dilute the special status of JnK and make article 370 defunct, is that bad??
 
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nrupatunga

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The leh-manali road which is open only during summer, provides a logistical challenge to keep ladakh connected. Else ladakh has to be reached only vis srinagar route. Rohtang tunnel will make matters much easier. Though not sure about the lastest update on this?? If GOI had invested more on leh-manali connectivity instead of pir panjal tunnel(this helped connectivity to srinagar, kashmir valley), ladakh would not be at the mercy of srinagar.
 

nrupatunga

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PM should consider making Ladakh a union territory! - By tavleen singh
This is being written just hours after I have flown over the most beautiful vista I have ever seen in my life, so indulge me if in this first paragraph I sound a bit euphoric. The vista started to open up within moments of the aeroplane taking off from Leh's small military airport. On either side of us rose khaki and white mountains as if we were flying through a funnel and then as we rose higher into the clouds on either side of us stretched fields and fields of snow covered mountains. It was a panorama so breathtaking that had such a spectacular view of high mountains existed in another country it would have drawn millions of tourists. And, Ladakh, so beautiful and so neglected, would have been transformed.

Shabby fashion

Instead, even before last August's devastating landslide Ladakh has been a desolate place, treated with such disdain that despite being geographically the largest district in India it was governed for years as part of the Ganderbal parliamentary constituency in Srinagar. This is an administrative absurdity so monumental that it is hard to find words to describe it. So in the nearly thirty years that have passed since I was last in Ladakh instead of modernity and progress what has happened is development in such haphazard and shabby fashion that the old died without anything new that was worthwhile being put in its place.

When I was last here in 1976, I came with the famous photographer, Raghu Rai, to cover the Dalai Lama's Kalachakra sermon. It was only the second Kalachakra sermon he had ever given and because it was in a place so close to Tibet it was special. A glass temple was built on the banks of the Indus and thousands came from all over Ladakh to attend thisTantric initiation. Leh then was a starkly beautiful town with nearly every building built in the traditional architectural style of Ladakh. It is a style that is similar to Tibetan but less ornate, so buildings have small windows and tall facades to keep out the biting cold of this desert at the top of the world. Today, Leh's buldings are modern and mostly quite ugly and not the smallest attention appears to have been paid to planning or urban design.

It is hard to expect more in a place that was for so long governed from far away Srinagar. But, a political fight was fought and Ladakh got its own elected body in the form of a hill council. It was elections to this hill council, scheduled for the end of this week, which took me to Leh last week. Rajasthan's former chief minister, Vasundhara Raje, now a BJP general secretary, called and asked if I would like to go with her to attend a political rally and I readily agreed.

We stayed in a modern hotel called the Grand Dragon Ladakh and after spending my first morning getting acclimatized to breathing at 11,500 feet I went with Vasundhara Raje to the school made famous by Aamir Khan's 3 Idiots. It was badly damaged by the landslides of mud and boulders that came down as a result of the cloudburst, two months ago, but is now almost back to normal. Aamir Khan has been here to lend celebrity support but the real work has been done by HCC which sent a hundred workers from its dam project in Kargil to clean up the dormitories and class rooms. Within a week, classes were back to normal but it took longer to clear the mud and boulders that had smashed down the dormitories.

On my second day, I went with Vasundhara Raje to attend the political rally. It was held in the shadow of the Leh Palace which, with its façade of pale khaki, looked as if it had been built out of the side of a mountain. Alongside it stretched a range of khaki mountains and in front of us a panorama of snow covered ones. I cannot remember a political rally that I have attended in more spectacular surroundings. The speeches were long and the speakers many. But, in the end, what became clear was that the main political demand that Ladakh has today is that it be freed from the administrative control of the Government of Jammu & Kashmir and be governed as a Union Territory. The other demand is that the language of Ladakh be included in the schedule that lists the official languages of India. But, what interested me more than these two administrative demands was the demand that the road to Mount Kailash and Manasarovar be opened up so that Hindu pilgrims going to pay obeisance at the mythical retreat of Lord Shiva go through Ladakh instead of through Chinese controlled Tibet.

Geographically challenged

Being geographically challenged by nature, I made some inquiries about the Manasoravar demand and discovered that Mount Kailash is no more than 200 kilometres from Leh. So if there was a decent road to the border and some tough negotiations with China we could persuade that old enemy of ours, to allow pilgrims to enter from Ladakh. Just this could pump millions of pilgrim rupees into the Ladakhi economy. It is not that tourists do not come to Ladakh from distant parts of the world. They do as is evident from the number of shops in the bazaar that advertise trekking, mountaineering and trips to Pangong Lake at 15,000 feet. But, much, much more can be done. Ladakh's natural beauty and its ancient monasteries could attract so many millions of tourists that it could become one of India's richest provinces.

Those who believe that tourism destroys ancient cultures and places of untouched natural beauty need to go to Leh to see how much more is being destroyed by neglect, bad urbanization and bad governance. Before it is all destroyed would the prime minister make the effort to seriously consider making Ladakh a union territory so it could be better governed. It has in recent times become even more alienated from Kashmir because of the secessionist movement in the Valley. Ladakh wants to stay in India and it wants better governance. It is very hard to understand why these simple demands are so hard to meet.

Meanwhile, I would like to be among the first pilgrims to Mount Kailash who go through Ladakh so that I can come fly once more over those fields and fields of white mountains that look like heaven is made to in the movies.
 

nrupatunga

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One more article demanding ladakh be separated from srinagar rule
On November 9 2010, two interlocutors on Jammu & Kashmir, M.M. Ansari and Radha Kumar, visited Leh in Ladakh to ascertain the views of the people there on what could help restore peace in Kashmir and resolve the issues facing the far-off Ladakhis. Dileep Padgaonkar did not accompany them because of other pre-occupations. Reports suggest he is not happy with Home Minister P. Chidambaram and that he and Radha are not on the same page as far as methodology is concerned.

During their stay at Leh, the interlocutors met at least six delegations. Local Congress leaders, including former Union minister P Namgyal; BJP leaders, including son-in-law of Rani Parvati of Ladakh and former MP Thupstan Chhewang; leaders of the Ladakh Buddhist Association (LBA) and the All-Ladakh Gompa Association (ALGA) and members of the Leh Autonomous Hill Development Council (LAHDC), including Chief Executive Councillor, met the interlocutors and discussed ways and means to resolve the Kashmir issue and free them from the domination of the Valley once and for all.

The most significant aspect of whole situation was the unity among all those who met the interlocutors. Each one spoke in one voice and asked the interlocutors to consider their demand for Union Territory status. The upshot of the arguments advanced by all delegations was that there was but one way to end their night of discontent and despair – by separating Ladakh from Kashmir and granting Union Territory status to their grossly ignored, politically marginalized and socio-culturally destroyed region. The demand is well-founded. The people of Ladakh, like the discriminated-against people of Jammu, deserve freedom from the discriminatory, separatist and essentially communal Kashmiri leadership.

It would not be out of place to mention here that the Ladakhi demand for "self-rule" within India is as old as the political emancipation of August 1947. Ladakhis have consistently argued that the "Kashmir issue can be seen only in the context of the validity of the Amritsar Treaty (of March 1846, under which the State of Jammu & Kashmir came into being), and that Ladakh should be allowed to go its own way as only the Maharaja (of the State) was the common link for Ladakh and Kashmir." The demand for a separate dispensation should also be viewed in the context of the Kashmiri attitude towards Ladakh, which has been negative and jingoistic, as the average Kashmiri disdainfully calls the Ladakhis "boto", which to many means non-Muslims.

The first time Ladakhis demanded "self-rule" was in 1949, when Cheewang Rigzin, President, LBA Subject Committee, gave a memorandum to Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru. A look at the language of the memorandum of 1949 reflects the Ladakhi attitude to the Kashmir Valley and its leadership. The memorandum read as follows:

"We are a separate nation by all tests – race, language, religion, culture – determining nationality, the only link connecting us with other people of the State being the bond of common ruler"¦ Sheikh Abdullah (of the National Conference) built up his case (for plebiscite) on the validity of the Treaty of Amritsar. This Treaty bears upon the territory of Kashmir only. So while the ruler has consented to transfer his sovereign power in favour of all his people, Sheikh Abdullah and the people of Kashmir can, through this transference, manage the affairs of their whole country as they wish. But they do not have the power to appropriate against their will, a people, a separate nation, whom a separate treaty – the result of the war of 1834 twelve years anterior to the Treaty of Amritsar – bound to the ruler in special relationship in which, the people of Kashmir, who came into picture later naturally did not figure at all."

"In case the result of the plebiscite is favourable to India, we simply go a step further than other people of the State in seeking a closer union with that great country and in case it is otherwise, our verdict stands clear and unchallengeable. When we have decided to cut ourselves asunder from the State itself, the question of our forming part of Pakistan cannot arise at all"¦We have indeed made up our mind to join India; but what is our decision worth until India is prepared to accept it? We certainly make the offer for our own advantage; we see in our merger with India the only hope of our salvation"¦There is nothing in our offer which is in any way incompatible with the high idealism which characterizes India's international policy. We might even say in positive terms that it is perfectly consistent with it. For has not India repeatedly declared that it stands for the right of self-determination for all our nations, and are we not a nation whose right of self-determination it should uphold and to whom it should extend the protection it seeks."
The path charted by Chhewang Rigzin was faithfully treaded by the people of Ladakh, who in 1952 under the inspiration and effective leadership of the Head Lama of Ladakh, Kushak Bakula, not only demanded an effective say in the administration of the state, but also asserted that they join Tibet in the event of New Delhi agreeing to Sheikh Abdullah's demand for greater autonomy or for implementation of the so-called Delhi Agreement of 1952.


In September 1967 the Ladakhis launched an organized struggle against "Kashmiri domination." Their highly revered leader, Kushak Bakula, who served as Minister of Ladakh Affairs between 1953 and 1967, went a step further and charged that "Ladakh has all along been treated as a colony by the State leadership," but also threatened that "Ladakh will become part of Tibet if his demand for a 'NEFA-type administration with representation in the Central Cabinet' was not conceded." Kushak Bakula told media in Delhi about Ladakhi grievances and asserted that "direct central administration of Ladakh would ensure its speedy economic development, which has been ignored during the past 20 years." He said "whatever little development had taken place in Ladakh was due to the efforts of the Indian Army."

Several proposals made by him during his tenure as Minister of Ladakh Affairs in the State Cabinet were rejected. The result was that Ladakhis were denied irrigation, educational and power facilities, among other things. He accused the (Congress) Government of Ghulam Mohammad Sadiq of "trying to create communal discord in Ladakh in order to weaken the movement of Ladakh's separation from Kashmir," and demanded an "inquiry into the complaints regarding lack of economic development." Bakula revealed he had "tendered his resignation several times first from the Bakshi Ghulam Mohammad Cabinet (Bakshi acted as State Wazir-e-Azam from 1953 to 1964) and later from the Sadiq Cabinet," as he had been "rendered ineffective by successive State Governments" and "that he had to stay on 'at the intervention of Central and State leaders' and for wider interests."

Bakshi Ghulam Mohammad fully endorsed the Ladakhi demand. In fact, he told The Tribune on September 20 at Sonamarg that when he was prime minister of the State, "he had asked Nehru to take over the administration of Ladakh as it was impossible for any government in Srinagar to do full justice to the cause of the Ladakhis. But Nehru did not agree then and, instead, asked me to induct Kushak Bakula in his ministry and which I did" (The Tribune, Sept 22, 1967).

The fate of the 1967 demand was the same as that of Bakshi's suggestion. While G.M. Sadiq dismissed the charges leveled by Kushak Bakula as "baseless," the Central Government rejected the demand for "NEFA-type administration" out-of-hand.

Similar movements were started by Ladakhis in 1974 and 1982 under the leadership of Lama Lobzang-Thupstan Chhewang and P. Namgyal, respectively, demanding Union Territory status for Ladakh. Lama Lobzung's argument was that "progress in Ladakh is admittedly limited" and that "it has not kept pace with rising aspirations following the expansion of education and growth of social and political consciousness"¦ The Ladakhis' desire more rapid development" and that could be achieved only "if we are granted Union Territory status" (The Hindustan Times, Jan. 29, 1974). The arguments advanced by P. Namgyal in 1982 in favour of Union Territory status were also identical (Kashmir Times, Feb. 7, 1997), but nothing came out of the efforts of Lama Lobzang and Namgyal. Instead, the Valley rulers, according to Ladakhi leaders, continued to "suppress the democratic rights of Ladakh through armed forces" (National Convention on the Ladakhi issue in Delhi, March 18, 1990).

In between, however, the State Government appointed the Gajendragadkar Commission to investigate the charge of regional imbalances. The commission acknowledged Ladakh's unequal share and recommended measures to rectify some of the wrongs. These included the setting up of a separate development board for Ladakh, inclusion of at least one Ladakhi in the State Cabinet, establishment of a degree college, revival of the single-line administration and merger of the proposed post of development commissioner with that of the deputy commissioner of Ladakh.

Instead, it disturbed the social equilibrium in 1978-79 by dividing Ladakh into Leh and Kargil districts on purely religious lines. The motive was to play Muslim-majority Kargil against Buddhist-majority Leh and weaken the autonomy movement. "A political schism was surreptitiously set forth, which succeeded in separating Leh and Kargil into two separate districts. In separating Kargil from Leh district, the Sheikh's intention was to remind the Kargilis, who are predominantly Shia Muslims, that historical and cultural ties are insignificant factors in Islamic policy, which he was trying to impose on the state," say Ladakhi Buddhists.

Under these circumstances the LBA launched a struggle on Oct. 15, 1989 for Union Territory stats for Ladakh. In a letter to the editor, The Hindustan Times, Oct. 17, 1989, Rigzin Jora (the then LBA leader and presently Tourism Minister in the Omar Abdullah-led coalition government) and T. Samphal, MLA, Leh, explained the circumstances which had compelled the Ladakhis to engineer the struggle:



"Ladakh is not just another backward region of the country. It is a region with a unique culture, typical geo-climatic conditions and a distinctive socio-economic order, besides being sensitive strategically located. Ladakh needs to be drawn into the national mainstream, while providing safeguards to its identity. This could only be done by separating Ladakh from Kashmir where the line between nationalism and separatism runs very thin. In demanding Union Territory status, Ladakh's primary concern is to protect its identity. Under Kashmir's rule, Ladakh suffered enormous cultural onslaught from fundamentalist organizations of the Valley. It is, therefore, important for Ladakh Buddhist Association to keep up its struggle for a Union Territory for Ladakh."
The Union Territory movement started on Oct. 15 left three persons dead and several seriously wounded. Crowds, mainly Buddhists, burnt government property and attacked police stations. Law and order could be restored only after Oct. 29, when the representatives of the State and Central Government met the agitating LBA leaders at Leh and reached an agreement under which Leh district was to get an autonomous hill development council, invested with administrative and economic powers. The agreement was signed by Thupstan Chhewang (LBA), P.P. Srivastava (Additional Secretary, Union Ministry of Home Affairs) and Ashok Jaitley (Additional Chief Secretary, Jammu and Kashmir Government), in the presence of Union Home Minister Buta Singh, who assured the Ladakhis of a set up on the lines of the Gorkha Hill Council.

Differences soon erupted over implementation of the tripartite agreement in a meeting held in Jammu on Jan. 10, 1990. Citing constitutional difficulties in granting an autonomous district council, Farooq Abdullah's government made every possible attempt to "hoodwink the LBA with the provisions of the Panchayati Raj Act, 1989," Rigzin Zora alleged.

The State Government's "blatant disrespect" for the tripartite agreement aggravated Leh's political scene, with Ladakhis resolving once again to create a stir and force the authorities to honour the commitment. The situation took a serious turn after July 7, 1990, when Thupstan was beaten up by the police, and Sonam Wangchuk, who had previously attacked a former minister, Sonam Wangyal, was arrested. These two incidents provoked LBA activists who stormed the Leh police station, triggering a police-LBA clash and a lathi-charge, bursting of teargas shells and imposition of curfew in Leh. On June 16, blasts occurred at the residence of Wangyal and in three government buildings in Leh. The LBA held a massive rally on July 17 to protest against the "anti-democratic attitude" of the authorities and began a dharna demanding the promised autonomous hill development council.

Convinced the authorities would not meet their demands, the Ladakhis adopted a threatening posture in February 1991. They organized a massive public rally in Leh on Feb. 14 and declared their intention to revive the agitation for UT status. Braving sub-zero temperature, fluctuating between minus 15 and 30, thousands of Ladakhis joined the demonstration. While thousands in colourful costumes from Leh town and adjoining villages marched from the historic martyrs' memorial to the Polo Ground, venue of demonstration, through the main bazaar, many others who could not reach the town owing to disruption of road traffic held protest meetings at Deskit, Nyoma and Tangtse. "Down with Kashmiri hegemony", "Our demand UT status, free Ladakh from Kashmir", and "We want to live as free citizens of independent India," read hundreds of placards carried by the LBA supporters.


On Aug. 25, 1991, the people of Leh observed a massive bandh in memory of the martyrs of October 1989. Earlier that day, Thupstan met President R. Venkataraman at Leh and warned that LBA would "wait for two more months at the most, hoping for a positive response from the Central Government," failing which it would revive the agitation. But the threat did not move the authorities though in April 1992, Union Home Minister S.B. Chavan met leaders from Ladakh; nothing tangible emerged. Chavan took the view that the "proposed council, as demanded by the LBA, would call for an amendment in the State Constitution as well as threaten the existence of Article 370 of the Constitution," and that "the decision could hardly be taken through an ordinance by the Governor who had no mandate for it." He also stated, obviously at the behest of the Kashmir-based NC and Congress leaders, including Ghulam Rasool Kar, that "any change in the status (of Ladakh) would hurt the Kashmiri psyche."


Angry Ladakhis organized a massive bandh in Leh on May 11. They also organized a 4-kilometer-long march in the city of Leh against "Kashmiri domination." The threat that the authorities in New Delhi concede their demands before May 20, 1992 worked, but not to the extent LBA leaders expected. Still the response from the Centre was substantial. In a meeting between Union Home Minister and LBA leaders in New Delhi on May 21, the former said "the Centre is ready to accept their demands as they do not require any amendment in the Jammu and Kashmir Constitution." Ultimately, on Nov. 28, 1992, the way was cleared for setting up an autonomous hill development council. However, it was only in September 1995 that a democratically-elected Leh Autonomous Hill Development Council (LAHDC) came into being.

Since the constitution the LAHDC, the people of Leh district have been expressing dissatisfaction over the institution won after a protracted struggle, as the State authorities are not allowing the council to function in the manner desired by the people. They believe, and rightly so, that Union Territory status is the only lasting solution to their problems. The insistence on UT status during the meeting with the interlocutors must be viewed in this context.

New Delhi would do well to concede this genuine demand so that Ladakh gets freedom from the Kashmiri yoke. The Centre should also separate Jammu from Kashmir because the nature of the problem facing the people of Jammu and Ladakh is the same. In other words, the State should be trifurcated so that the people of Jammu and Ladakh are freed from the cruel clutches of the Kashmiri Muslim leadership and New Delhi is free to tackle the Valley militants separately.

The author is former Chair Professor, Maharaja Gulab Singh Chair, University of Jammu, Jammu, & former member Indian Council of Historical Research
 
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nrupatunga

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It seems that JnK upper house also has passed for creating a separate admin unit for ladakh from JnK.

Source

Jammu, Mar 3, 2014:

Emboldening the supporters of the Union Territory status for Ladakh, the Legislative Council Monday passed a private member resolution seeking "carving out a separate administrative division for the region."

The House adopted the resolution for segregating the administrative affairs of Ladakh region from Kashmir. Five legislators from the coalition partners—National Conference and Congress—voted in its favour while only three opposed it.

This morning, the House passed the resolution moved by Nubroo Gialchen, a Congress lawmaker from Ladakh region.

The resolution states that "a separate division for the region may be created to provide proper administrative control for the region."


Ajat Shatru Singh, who was in the chair, first put the resolution for voice vote but he could not decide its fate as there were equal voices in its favor as well as opposition, promoting him to put the resolution for voting. Five members raised their hands in its favour while three opposed it.

Nurboo Gailchen (Congress), Aga Rizvi (NC), Rani Billoria (Congress), Master Noor Hussain (NC) and Sham Lal Baghat (Congress) raised their hands in favour of the resolution while as Khalid Najib Suharwardy (NC), Bashir Ahmed Magray (Congress) and Bashir Ahmed Veeri (NC) opposed it. Other legislators from NC and Congress, who were present in the House, behaved as mute spectators by neither opposing the resolution nor negating it. Later, the Chair declared that the resolution stands adopted by the House.

Earlier speaking in favour of the resolution, Nurboo Gialchen linked the demand of creation of a separate division for Ladakh with the "rights" of the people residing in the region.
"Nobody should make this resolution an issue of prestige as it the question of people's rights and justice," he said. He said Ladakh regions remain cut off from the rest of the state for six months and the people of the region face lot of inconvenience due to absence of an administrative division there. Aga Rizvi of NC too echoed similar views.

Minister for Planning & Development Department Ajay Sadhotra while asking the member to withdraw the resolution said that Ladakh region is receiving equal attention from the government in developmental and economic matters. He said the region has two Hill Councils to cater to its developmental needs. "The region receives funds from both plan and central schemes and above all, these funds are non-lapsable," he said.
Sadhotra said that executive councilors of the Hill Councils enjoy the powers of a cabinet minister. "Besides, the district officers in the region have been vested with powers of Head of the Department," he said.

At present, the State has two administrative divisions- Kashmir and Jammu. Ladakh, which has population of 2.80 lakh souls, is part of Kashmir division.
The resolution comes in the backdrop of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, last year, agreeing to the demand of setting up a separate police range for the region. The adoption of the resolution, according to observers, could come as handy for the voices seeking trifurcation of the State particularly UT status for Ladakh.

"Though the resolution is a symbolic measure and the creation of an administrative division is a mere revenue matter, it can be used by divisive forces for mobilizing the people of Ladakh behind the demand of UT status," they said. They expressed surprise over NC-Congress supporting the resolution. "There was no political compulsion for both the parties to back the demand given the fact that there are no takers for it in the region. Besides, the voices for UT status are in total disarray," they said.

Legal experts said implementation of the resolution passed by any of the two Houses is not mandatory.

Later, Congress says its legislators 'defied whip'

In an interesting development this afternoon, Congress's Chief Whip in the Upper House, Bashir Ahmad Magray, Monday evening said the party will seek explanation from its legislators for voting in favour of the resolution seeking separate administrative division for Ladakh region.
Earlier in the day, Sham Lal Baghat and Rani Billoria of Congress supported the resolution for segregating administrative affairs of Ladakh from Kashmir when it was put for voting in the House.

"I pleaded with both of them to vote against the resolution but they defied the whip," Magray claimed. He said he will proceed against both the legislators for violating the whip. "I am going to seek explanation from both of them," he said. He said Congress couldn't put much resistance against the resolution as "majority of our members were absent from the House."
 

prohumanity

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There is no need to redraw the map. Article 370 must be erased and all Indians should have equal rights to buy property, open businesses and move in and out of J&K. Any group who opposes this uniform rights agenda should be dealt with full force. Their leaders arrested and put in prisons for Anti-India activities. There was no need to drag J&K problem for 60 years. Cowardice and fear has kept politicians from acting boldly in the past. Hope it will change soon.
 

nrupatunga

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Currently 8 people have voted. And its exact split i.e. 4 people each have voted for either options.

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There is no need to redraw the map. Article 370 must be erased and all Indians should have equal rights to buy property, open businesses and move in and out of J&K. Any group who opposes this uniform rights agenda should be dealt with full force. Their leaders arrested and put in prisons for Anti-India activities. There was no need to drag J&K problem for 60 years. Cowardice and fear has kept politicians from acting boldly in the past. Hope it will change soon.
See this option is too idealistic and there are very less chances of coming through. If it that had to happen, it should have happened by now. Why would JnK politicians esp K politicians agree for toning down of the article 370. They want GOI to support them financially, its like enjoying all rights but having zero responsibilities.
 

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Voted for separate units for the simple reason of geography.

Right now there is a thing called 'durbar move' where the JK capital shifts twice a year between Jammu and Kashmir.

But what about Ladakh?
 

tarunraju

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This may sound strange coming from a Telanganavadi, and proponent of more state divisions for administrative improvements, but I feel it's ill-advised to divide J&K. We must divide our-controlled J&K the way Pakistan divided POK, only if we have completely given up on ever recovering POK and AC. The monolithic nature of India-administered J&K will strengthen our case for recovery of POK, since we will not have interfered with the unity and functioning of the state, while Pakistan will have ended up in the wrong. If and when we've recovered POK, we can redraw state boundaries within the state.
 

Ray

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Folks, should JnK be redrawn along ethnic/religious lines??

The debate has been re-initiated when congress felt that ladakh may need to be made a union territory. Some say this will weaken our case on JnK. If so how??

If am not wrong, bjp and congress(now) are for it. NC is also for it(?), so except pdp which opposes this most of them are for it or certainly not against it.

Apart form the political aspects, how will the strategic/military aspects be impacted??

Please lets discuss on this issue. What are the pros and cons of this??

===============

@Yusuf @Ray @bennedose @pmaitra @Virendra @Razor

any JnK folks on DFI??
Militarily it would make no difference.

Ethnically and sects the areas in J&K are different.

The Valley is Sunni
Kargil is Shia
Ladhak is predominantly Buddhists.
Kistwar is mixed
Jammu is Hindu
Sundarbani is mixed
Rajauri and Punch is Sunni, but the people are totally different ethnically than the Valley.

If Ladhak becomes a UT, then it will impact Pakistan alone since they will not be able to rouse the Kashmir issue with the same emotive fervour as they do now since the Shias (who are persecuted in Pakistan) will not echo any sentiment as Kargil/ Dras would be in the UT and de-linked from Kashmir.
 
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Singh

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J&K was never a monolith. Dividing it for easy of administration is welcome.

Make Jammu separate
Ladakh separate
And instead of keeping Valley separate, split into 2 zones. One with a few districts from Jammu and one with a few districts from Ladakh.

That way we will have 4 zones. And a weak (not united) Valley and a plausible deniability that we want an ethnic division. ;)
 

Pratap

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There is no need to redraw the map. Article 370 must be erased and all Indians should have equal rights to buy property, open businesses and move in and out of J&K. Any group who opposes this uniform rights agenda should be dealt with full force. Their leaders arrested and put in prisons for Anti-India activities. There was no need to drag J&K problem for 60 years. Cowardice and fear has kept politicians from acting boldly in the past. Hope it will change soon.
I agree completely .
 

nrupatunga

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This may sound strange coming from a Telanganavadi, and proponent of more state divisions for administrative improvements, but I feel it's ill-advised to divide J&K. We must divide our-controlled J&K the way Pakistan divided POK, only if we have completely given up on ever recovering POK and AC. The monolithic nature of India-administered J&K will strengthen our case for recovery of POK, since we will not have interfered with the unity and functioning of the state, while Pakistan will have ended up in the wrong. If and when we've recovered POK, we can redraw state boundaries within the state.
Somehow entire POK would come back to india w/o physically taking it back i.e. via diplomacy or any other way imo should be ruled out. When we are actaully seeing via diplomacy(aka peace process) we are actually handing it to pakis.

I feel instead of waiting for utopia, we should improve the lives of ladakis and Jammu folks. Esp ladakh connectivity via leh-manali should made into a all-weather road. To counter china this is a BIG MUST. If this weakens the article 370 status to kashmir part, then this should be done ASAP. From what we are seeing the demography is changing in favor of kashmiris in both ladakh and jammu region. Now we are seeing riots happening in jammu region more frequently.


===========================

Militarily it would make no difference.

Ethnically and sects the areas in J&K are different.

The Valley is Sunni
Kargil is Shia
Ladhak is predominantly Buddhists.
Kistwar is mixed
Jammu is Hindu
Sundarbani is mixed
Rajauri and Punch is Sunni, but the people are totally different ethnically than the Valley.

If Ladhak becomes a UT, then it will impact Pakistan alone since they will not be able to rouse the Kashmir issue with the same emotive fervour as they do now since the Shias (who are persecuted in Pakistan) will not echo any sentiment as Kargil/ Dras would be in the UT and de-linked from Kashmir.
If am not wrong the entire valley is in a way able to blackmail dilli because it controls the route to ladakh and siachen. If leh-manali route is not open entire year, we have to knee before separatists who can make it difficult for army to move freely into and out of ladakh.

=========

Finally we have to see how to dilute article 370 and implement it w/o openly saying so. So can the dilution of article 370 be done??
 

nrupatunga

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If need be we should go back to 1840's when current state of JnK was formed(JnK as in the areas which GoI recognises as JnK) to find any loopholes which we can exploit and carve out ladakh(if not jammu) from JnK.

@Singh If am not wrong the treaty of amritsar in mid 1840's created the JnK as we know it. How did it come about, any plausible loopholes to exploit??
 
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Singh

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If need be we should go back to 1840's when current state of JnK was formed(JnK as in the areas which GoI recognises as JnK) to find any loopholes which we can exploit and carve out ladakh(if not jammu) from JnK.

@Singh If am not wrong the treaty of amritsar in mid 1840's created the JnK as we know it. How did it come about, any plausible loopholes to exploit??
Please confirm.
Sikhs had only recently annexed all these frontier areas part of present day J&K, and had not brought them under direct rule of Lahore
1846 Treaty of Amristar concluded the sale of present day J&K (or frontier areas not under Lahore) to Gulab Singh (minus Lahaul?)

Sino-Sikh Treaty of Chusul clearly states that Chinese acknowledge taht Ladakh and CoK is part of India.
Treaty of Amritsar clearly states that J&K was a princely state with defined borders
Kashmir ascension treaty clearly states that Kashmir is part of India

We don't need to find any loopholes. Just say for the sake of administrative ease, India is dividing J&K into 3-4 parts. Pakistan did it with PoK, AJK and Northern Areas/Gilgit-Baltistan.
 
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