Small arms of India

Redhawk

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He was most probably talking about the 71 conflict.
Yeah, the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 was not a great land or air battle. But it did have its moments until the bloody Pakistanis just gave up and keeled over! The '65 War is a much better example of a land battle and an air battle.

Watch this excellent documentary short on the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. Note the bravado of Lt-Gen. A. A. K. Niazi, the Pakistani general officer commanding, at 5:30 when he tells assembled journalists that he will "fight it out to the last." More Pakistani revisionism!

 
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Ray

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That would be really great sir!!And about the use of different rifles,there was report that Indian Army had been buying a few thousand Galil sniper versions.And as for the H&K PSG1 and Mauser SP 66 are concerned,I got that from OFB's official site.According to that sight,they have been producing a match grade 7.62X51 mm NATO ammunition for these two rifles.

By the way,what was the reason behind acquiring the SVD when the available SLRs could be used to engage targets at 800 yards or more with addition of scopes (the SVD scopes are not that good anyway) and a heavy bull barrel.I mean when the match grade rounds are produced in country,then what was the need to import another rifle that make use of a different round??
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Why it was done was beyond my pay grade.

My philosophy coincides with Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld: "You Go To War With The Army You Have---not The Army You Might Want Or Wish To Have At A Later Time.
 

Blood+

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By the way @Redhawk ,this battle of Chawinda is used as a big tool of propaganda in Pakistan to show that they won this war and seems like over time they themselves have fallen for it.According to them,their army had defeated a three times larger Indian force in this battle in a spectacular show of raw courage,emotion and sheer determinations,guts and what not.But you see,it's all a big lie.In reality,the Indian forces in this sector never outnumbered the Pakistanis.............in fact the attacking Indian 1st armored division was at almost 2 to 1 numerical disadvantage in numbers of tank and artillery and the Pakistanis were firing from well fortified and camouflaged positions.As you know,in a conventional war,while fighting in the plains,the attacking side needs to master atleast 3 to 1 numerical superiority in order to reliably defeat and dislodge a well defended position,but here the attackers were themselves vastly outnumbered and in broad day light,the Indians were caught in the open and therefore suffered heavily from superior Pakistani artillery.Yet,the outcome was far from being so one sided as is often reported to be.Despite of all their numerical and technological advantages coupled to the inherent advantage of fighting a defensive battle from well defended and camouflaged positions,the Pakistanis lost more tanks than the Indians.44 or so were captured and towed back by the Indian Army,(so more numbers had been damaged or destroyed more likely),the official history of Pakistani 6th panzer division ,named "The Men of Steel" puts this number to 37 which is quite consistent with Indian claim.Where as they claim to have destroyed 140 or so Indian tanks which is ludicrous to say the least.

And not just this particular battle,you will often see the Pakistanis,just like any other muslim nations,make such over exaggerated claims on utterly destroying their enemies and unnerving the same by their mere presence and all.You will see another such claim that one Pakistani Sabre pilot had shot down 6 Indian Hunters within 2 minutes!!And they believe this claim till this day even though it has been debunked countless times!!Makes one wonder whether they are insane or what.This one thing is a very common trait among every muslim for some reason.
 
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Blood+

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Yeah, the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 was not a great land or air battle. But it did have its moments until the bloody Pakistanis just gave up and keeled over! The '65 War is a much better example of a land battle and an air battle.

Watch this excellent documentary short on the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. Note the bravado of Lt-Gen. A. A. K. Niazi, the Pakistani general officer commanding, at 5:30 when he tells assembled journalists that he will "fight it out to the last." More Pakistani revisionism!


That is not right...........not by a long shot!!Actually very few have any idea about the extremely bloody and violent battles that raged on the Western front!!Do you know that the Pakistanis lost almost the same area of land in the western front as they did in the East??
 
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Ray

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Yeah, the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 was not a great land or air battle. But it did have its moments until the bloody Pakistanis just gave up and keeled over! The '65 War is a much better example of a land battle and an air battle.

Watch this excellent documentary short on the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. Note the bravado of Lt-Gen. A. A. K. Niazi, the Pakistani general officer commanding, at 5:30 when he tells assembled journalists that he will "fight it out to the last." More Pakistani revisionism!

1971 was a great battle.

We. through planning and good tactics, apart from a fine strategy ran through East Pakistan in just 13 days.

No soldier, even if he is a Pakistan, simply gives up. He has to be defeated. And defeated they were - hands down!

Between 90,000 and 93,000 members of the Pakistan Armed Forces including paramilitary personnel were taken as Prisoners of War by the Indian Army.


Illustration showing military units and troop movements during operations in the Eastern sector of the war.

In the western theatre of the war, the Indian Navy, under the command of Vice Admiral S.N. Kohli, successfully attacked Karachi's port in Operation Trident on the night of 4–5 December,[14] using missile boats, sinking Pakistani destroyer PNS Khyber and minesweeper PNS Muhafiz; PNS Shah Jahan was also badly damaged. 720 Pakistani sailors were killed or wounded, and Pakistan lost reserve fuel and many commercial ships, thus crippling the Pakistan Navy's further involvement in the conflict. Operation Trident was followed by Operation Python on the night of 8–9 December,[14] in which Indian missile boats attacked the Karachi port, resulting in further destruction of reserve fuel tanks and the sinking of three Pakistani merchant ships.

In the eastern theatre of the war, the Indian Eastern Naval Command, under Vice Admiral Krishnan, completely isolated East Pakistan by a naval blockade in the Bay of Bengal, trapping the Eastern Pakistani Navy and eight foreign merchant ships in their ports. From 4 December onwards, the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant was deployed, and its Sea Hawk fighter-bombers attacked many coastal towns in East Pakistan including Chittagong and Cox's Bazaar. Pakistan countered the threat by sending the submarine PNS Ghazi, which sank en route under mysterious circumstances off Vishakapatnam's coast reducing Pakistan's control of Bangladeshi coastline.[citation needed] But on 9 December, the Indian Navy suffered its biggest wartime loss when the Pakistani submarine PNS Hangor sank the frigate INS Khukri in the Arabian Sea resulting in a loss of 18 officers and 176 sailors.

The damage inflicted on the Pakistani Navy stood at 7 gunboats, 1 minesweeper, 1 submarine, 2 destroyers, 3 patrol crafts belonging to the coast guard, 18 cargo, supply and communication vessels, and large scale damage inflicted on the naval base and docks in the coastal town of Karachi. Three merchant navy ships – Anwar Baksh, Pasni and Madhumathi and ten smaller vessels were captured. Around 1900 personnel were lost, while 1413 servicemen were captured by Indian forces in Dhaka. According to one Pakistan scholar, Tariq Ali, the Pakistan Navy lost a third of its force in the war.

While India's grip on what had been East Pakistan tightened, the IAF continued to press home attacks against Pakistan itself. The campaign developed into a series of daylight anti-airfield, anti-radar and close-support attacks by fighters, with night attacks against airfields and strategic targets by B-57s and C-130 (Pakistan), and Canberras and An-12s (India). The PAF's F-6s were employed mainly on defensive combat air patrols over their own bases, but without air superiority the PAF was unable to conduct effective offensive operations, and its attacks were largely ineffective. During the IAF's airfield attacks, one US and one UN aircraft were damaged in Dacca, while a Canadian Air Force Caribou was destroyed at Islamabad, along with US military liaison chief Brigadier General Chuck Yeager's USAF Beech U-8 light twin.

Sporadic raids by the IAF continued against Pakistan's forward air bases in the West until the end of the war, and large scale interdiction and close-support operations, and were maintained. The PAF played a more limited part in the operations, and were reinforced by F-104s from Jordan, Mirages from an unidentified Middle Eastern ally (remains unknown) and by F-86s from Saudi Arabia. Their arrival helped camouflage the extent of Pakistan's losses. Libyan F-5s were reportedly deployed to Sargodha, perhaps as a potential training unit to prepare Pakistani pilots for an influx of more F-5s from Saudi Arabia.

Hostilities officially ended at 14:30 GMT on 17 December, after the fall of Dacca on 15 December. India claimed large gains of territory in West Pakistan (although pre-war boundaries were recognised after the war), and the independence of Pakistan's East wing as Bangladesh was confirmed. India flew 1,978 sorties in the East and about 4,000 in the West, while the PAF flew about 30 and 2,840. More than 80 percent of the IAF's sorties were close-support and interdiction, and about 65 IAF aircraft were lost (54 losses were admitted), perhaps as many as 27 of them in air combat. Pakistan lost 72 aircraft (51 of them combat types, but admitting only 25 to enemy action). Of the Pakistani losses, at least 24 fell in air combat (although only 10 air combat losses were admitted, not including any F-6s, Mirage IIIs, or the six Jordanian F-104s which failed to return to their donors). But the imbalance in air losses was explained by the IAF's considerably higher sortie rate, and its emphasis on ground-attack missions. On the ground Pakistan suffered most, with 8,000 killed and 25,000 wounded while India lost 3,000 dead and 12,000 wounded. The loss of armoured vehicles was similarly imbalanced. This represented a major defeat for Pakistan

Pakistan attacked at several places along India's western border with Pakistan, but the Indian army successfully held their positions.[citation needed] The Indian Army quickly responded to the Pakistan Army's movements in the west and made some initial gains, including capturing around 5,795 square miles (15,010 km2) of Pakistan territory (land gained by India in Pakistani Kashmir, Pakistani Punjab and Sindh sectors was later ceded in the Simla Agreement of 1972, as a gesture of goodwill).

On the eastern front, the Indian Army joined forces with the Mukti Bahini to form the Mitro Bahini (Allied forces); unlike the 1965 war which had emphasised set-piece battles and slow advances, this time the strategy adopted was a swift, three-pronged assault of nine infantry divisions with attached armoured units and close air support that rapidly converged on Dhaka, the capital of East Pakistan.

Lieutenant General Jagjit Singh Aurora, who commanded the eighth, twenty-third, and fifty-seventh divisions, led the Indian thrust into East Pakistan. As these forces attacked Pakistani formations, the Indian Air Force rapidly destroyed the small air contingent in East Pakistan and put the Dhaka airfield out of commission. In the meantime, the Indian Navy effectively blockaded East Pakistan.

The Indian campaign employed "blitzkrieg" techniques, exploiting weakness in the enemy's positions and bypassing opposition, and resulted in a swift victory. Faced with insurmountable losses, the Pakistani military capitulated in less than a fortnight. On 16 December, the Pakistani forces stationed in East Pakistan surrendered.
Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Blood+

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Search me.

Why it was done was beyond my pay grade.

My philosophy coincides with Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld: "You Go To War With The Army You Have---not The Army You Might Want Or Wish To Have At A Later Time.

Indeed sir,and that's the philosophy I believe in too!!That's why I don't yet have come to understand the rationale behind adopting the SVD and further complicate the logistics when the army already possessed such a huge number of semi automatic SLRs,which could be modified for DMR use at a much more competitive price since the soldiers were well trained with this rifle and the spare and match grade ammo was readily available within the country!!In fact,if I'm not wrong,many countries including Indian Army is now using scoped SLRs for DMR purpose!!
 

Ray

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Indeed sir,and that's the philosophy I believe in too!!That's why I don't yet have come to understand the rationale behind adopting the SVD and further complicate the logistics when the army already possessed such a huge number of semi automatic SLRs,which could be modified for DMR use at a much more competitive price since the soldiers were well trained with this rifle and the spare and match grade ammo was readily available within the country!!In fact,if I'm not wrong,many countries including Indian Army is now using scoped SLRs for DMR purpose!!
That is because you do not understand the DRDO.

Patriotism may make you feel that is an organisation that delivers, but in actuality, as has been understood by this present Govt which want all to deliver or so it seems, DRDO is merely a bureaucratic, self serving organisation except in certain sectors.

it is a popular myth propagated by interest parties that the Armed Forces want imported weaponry. Totally false. Do you think we would like to hang our lives on line?
Do we want to get killed because we have no weapons to replenish those lost in war because there is a sanction and do senior officers want to get sacked because they lost the war, only because we had no replenishment thanks to sanction on foreign equipment?

I don't think so.

We want weaponry and ammunition, the supply of which is guaranteed. And that is feasible only if it is manufactured in India.

At least, for me and many others, our professional reputation cannot be sold because someone sold his soul for a piece of gold and that is, if done, is only done by Price Negotiation Committee.
 
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Redhawk

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By the way @Redhawk ,this battle of Chawinda is used as a big tool of propaganda in Pakistan to show that they won this war and seems like over time they themselves have fallen for it.According to them,their army had defeated a three times larger Indian force in this battle in a spectacular show of raw courage,emotion and sheer determinations,guts and what not.But you see,it's all a big lie.In reality,the Indian forces in this sector never outnumbered the Pakistanis.............in fact the attacking Indian 1st armored division was at almost 2 to 1 numerical disadvantage in numbers of tank and artillery and the Pakistanis were firing from well fortified and camouflaged areas.As you know,in a conventional war,the attacker needs atleast 3 to 1 numerical superiority to dislodge a well defended position,but here the attackers were themselves vastly outnumbered and in broad day light,the Indians were caught in the open and therefore suffered heavily from superior Pakistani artillery.Yet,the outcome was never so one sided as is often reported to be,despite all their advantages,the Pakistanis lost more tanks.44 or so were captured and towed back by the Indian Army,(so more had been damaged or destroyed more likely),the official history of Pakistani 6th panzer division puts this number to 37 which is quite consistent with Indian claim.Where as they claim to have destroyed 140 or so Indian tanks which is ludicrous to say the least.

And not just this particular battle,you will often see the Pakistani,just like any other muslim nations,make such over exaggerated claims on destroying their enemies.You will see another such claim that one Pakistani Sabre pilot had shot down 6 Indian Hunters within 2 minutes!!And they believe this claim till this day even though it has been debunked countless times!!Makes one wonder whether they are insane or what.This one thing is a very common trait among every muslim for some reason.
I realise that Pakistan makes some very extravagant and exaggerated claims about all the Indo-Pakistani wars. And Sept. 14, 1965 headline of The Australian made The Australian Pakistan's favourite newspaper, even if the headline was wrong, which it was and is. That is why I talk of Pakistani revisionism where the Pakistanis rewrite the history of the wars. And it is common among Moslem nations to rewrite the history of their wars to make it look like they won and to make the Moslems look braver and more competent than they were and are.

The Arabs are in reality terribly lazy, incompetent, and often cowardly soldiers, they are often weaklings, in fact, but they have projected this image that they are great warriors for Islam when in fact they could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag. When Arab weaklings meet well-trained, disciplined, cohesive units of real soldiers and who really know how to fight and can offer organised resistance, the Arabs fall apart and surrender like lambs or run away or simply get slaughtered and destroyed. I pointed this fact out in a number of posts on a pro-Pakistani military forum and they didn't like it much. So they banned me for saying this among other things.

What the Arabs are very good at is shooting or beheading defenceless, helpless people who can't resist them or fight back against them in any way. That's when Arab "fighters" are at their "bravest".

That is not right...........not by a long shot!!Actually very few have any idea about the extremely bloody and violent battles that raged on the Western front!!Do you know that the Pakistanis lost almost the same area of land in the western front as they did in the East??
I wouldn't say the documentary short is wrong. I would say it is incomplete as it doesn't give as much detail on the fighting in the west as it ought to have done. I wonder where Ray was in all this.
 
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Ray

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If you mean this then I was in the Western Front, carrying out a raid 9 miles inside POK.
 
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Blood+

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That is because you do not understand the DRDO.

Patriotism may make you feel that is an organisation that delivers, but in actuality, as has been understood by this present Govt which want all to deliver or so it seems, DRDO is merely a bureaucratic, self serving organisation except in certain sectors.

it is a popular myth propagated by interest parties that the Armed Forces want imported weaponry. Totally false. Do you think we would like to hang our lives on line?
Do we want to get killed because we have no weapons to replenish those lost in war because there is a sanction and do senior officers want to get sacked because they lost the war, only because we had no replenishment thanks to sanction on foreign equipment?

I don't think so.

At least, for me and many others, our professional reputation cannot be sold because someone sold his soul for a piece of gold and that is, if done, is only done by Price Negotiation Committee.
But sir,you do not even need the DRDO for what I was suggesting!!The OFB and base repair depots should have been enough to modify the SLR s.The match grade rounds are already in production and they manufacture 7.62 mm heavy barrels for FN MAGs.There should not have been any problem at all,as you can see that the building blocks were already present with the respective organisations.And in fact,as you know,the scoped SLRs are indeed being used in India Army,isn't it??

And sir,it wasn't just from blind patriotism that I made such a suggestion,rather it was due to the practicability behind it.I mean you yourself have mentioned multiple times that any army would want to simplify their logistics due to a plethora of reasons but in this case,importing the SVDs seems like deviating from that path of simplicity and commonality.........atleast from a layman's point of view.
 
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Redhawk

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@Ray: I didn't say the Pakistanis were not defeated. I said the Indo-Pak War of '65 was a better example of land and air battles. Gen. Sam Manekshaw planned the Indian side of the '71 war and he was the architect of India's victory. It was an efficient and effective plan and it worked well. The Pakistanis, had they wished, could have turned Dacca into a real hellhole if they had decided to fight it out to the last, as the Pakistani GOC Lt-Gen. A.A.K. Niazi had expressed they would. 90,000 men in a city the size of Dacca would have been the largest city battle since the Battle for Berlin in 1945 and in that battle the Red Army sustained 200,000 casualties and in taking Berlin Soviet soldiers were often fighting only old men and boys. But the Pakistanis decided discretion was the better part of valour and unconditionally surrendered, thus saving many men's lives. The Pakistanis had been defeated by Manekshaw's plan and Lt-Gen. J.S. Aurora's execution of that plan.
 
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Blood+

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It is a popular myth propagated by interest parties that the Armed Forces want imported weaponry. Totally false. Do you think we would like to hang our lives on line?
Do we want to get killed because we have no weapons to replenish those lost in war because there is a sanction and do senior officers want to get sacked because they lost the war, only because we had no replenishment thanks to sanction on foreign equipment?

I don't think so.

We want weaponry and ammunition, the supply of which is guaranteed. And that is feasible only if it is manufactured in India.

At least, for me and many others, our professional reputation cannot be sold because someone sold his soul for a piece of gold and that is, if done, is only done by Price Negotiation Committee.
Of course what you say make a lot of sense but the others are not completely wrong either!!Even you can not deny the fact that,there are always a few bad apples in the basket,even in the Indian Army,well any army for that matter.For example,you must be aware of the recent CAG report about the comparative trials between Arjun and T 90S.As you already know probably,a better homegrown system was sidelined in favor of imported one,even when the later was clearly having reliability issues and also technologically somewhat inferior and a lot of subsystems had to be replaced or modified modified by the same DRDO. Clearly they were anything but preferring the homegrown system.
.
 

Ray

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Of course what you say make a lot of sense but the others are not completely wrong either!!Even you can not deny the fact that,there are always a few bad apples in the basket,even in the Indian Army,well any army for that matter.For example,you must be aware of the recent CAG report about the comparative trials between Arjun and T 90S.As you already know probably,a better homegrown system was sidelined in favor of imported one,even when the later was clearly having reliability issues and also technologically somewhat inferior and a lot of subsystems had to be replaced or modified modified by the same DRDO. Clearly they were anything but preferring the homegrown system.
.
Bad apples cannot wipe out Note sheets that discusses the arms under consideration. Notesheets contain variety of views.; of a variety of departments of the army, DRDO, DGI and what have you.

Political and financial considerations of the Govt and PNC can.

Bofors. HDW and the list goes on.
 

Ray

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@Ray: I didn't say the Pakistanis were not defeated. I said the Indo-Pak War of '65 was a better example of land and air battles. Gen. Sam Manekshaw planned the Indian side of the '71 war and he was the architect of India's victory. It was an efficient and effective plan and it worked well. The Pakistanis, had they wished, could have turned Dacca into a real hellhole if they had decided to fight it out to the last, as the Pakistani GOC Lt-Gen. A.A.K. Niazi had expressed they would. 90,000 men in a city the size of Dacca would have been the largest city battle since the Battle for Berlin in 1945 and in that battle the Red Army sustained 200,000 casualties and in taking Berlin Soviet soldiers were often fighting only old men and boys. But the Pakistanis decided discretion was the better part of valour and unconditionally surrendered, thus saving many men's lives. The Pakistanis had been defeated by Manekshaw's plan and Lt-Gen. J.S. Aurora's execution of that plan.
They were our Generaled, out numbered and abandoned.

Indian Army kept the baying for blood Bengalis and so you can understand the plight they were in.

If the Bengalis were released, there would have a blood bath.

You can see the way Bangladesh in striking back at the collaborator so many years later.

The Pakistanis had no chance.
 
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Ray

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But sir,you do not even need the DRDO for what I was suggesting!!The OFB and base repair depots should have been enough to modify the SLR s.The match grade rounds are already in production and they manufacture 7.62 mm heavy barrels for FN MAGs.There should not have been any problem at,as you can see that the building blocks were already present with the respective organisations.And in fact,as you know,the scoped SLRs are indeed being used in India Army,isn't it??

And sir,it wasn't just from blind patriotism that I made such a suggestion,rather it was due to the practicability behind it.I mean you yourself have mentioned multiple times that any army would want to simplify their logistics due to a plethora of reasons but in this case,importing the SVDs seems like deviating from that path of simplicity and commonality.........atleast from a layman's point of view.
Scopes were not there at that time.

Even if what you say is right, then imagine the 'expertise' we had and have.

Speaks much about DRDO and OFB and all others, what?

Indian Army says what it wants, the others including Govt, gives it or fails to give.
 

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Bad apples cannot wipe out Note sheets that discusses the arms under consideration. Notesheets contain variety of views.; of a variety of departments of the army, DRDO, DGI and what have you.

Political and financial considerations of the Govt and PNC can.

Bofors. HDW and the list goes on.
Can't agree more.........especially about the HDW saga,it was nothing short of a tragic comedy of errors on the part of GoI.
 

Redhawk

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They were our Generaled, out numbered and abandoned.

Indian Army kept the baying for blood Bengalis and so you can understand the plight they were in.

If the Bengalis were released, there would have a blood bath.

You can see the way Bangladesh in striking back at the collaborator so many years later.

The Pakistanis had no chance.
Yes, exactly. The Pakistanis simply had no chance. And the Pakistani government were complete idiots for putting them in that position. And the wholesale atrocities committed by the Pak Army against the Bengali population were inexcusable. Pakistan deserved to lose East Bengal (East Pakistan) and it did.
 
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Redhawk

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If you mean this then I was in the Western Front, carrying out a raid 9 miles inside POK.
One presumes the raid was successful. How long were you in the Indian Army, Ray?
 
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Blood+

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Yes, exactly. The Pakistanis simply had no chance. And the Pakistani government were complete idiots for putting them in that position. And the wholesale atrocities committed by the Pak Army against the Bengali population were inexcusable. Pakistan deserved to lose East Bengal and it did.
And the average Pakistani citizen still believe that it was all Indian propaganda and nothing of that sort ever happened in reality!!Speaks much of their nature.They truly deserve to be in that shithole they find themselves in.
 

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