Small arms of India

Redhawk

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Vickers-Berthier Mk III light machine-gun as adopted by the Indian Army in 1933. According to Wiki, a production line for the Vickers-Berthier Light Machine-Gun Mk 3 was established at the Ishapore Rifle Factory.

Was the .303-in. Vickers medium machine-gun manufactured at Ishapore at any time?

 
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Redhawk

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Re: Mg-42



Vickers-Berthier Mk III light machine-gun as adopted by the Indian Army in 1933. According to Wiki, a production line for the Vickers-Berthier Light Machine-Gun Mk 3 was established at the Ishapore Rifle Factory.

Was the .303-in. Vickers medium machine-gun manufactured at Ishapore at any time?

 

Ky Loung

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The Camp Perry matches are held by the National Rifle Association; competing teams are civilian and military. There are several events; some allow scoped rifles and pistols.
Ear protection is required, either earplugs or earmuffs. Both types are available in conformations which block loud noise, but allow low level sounds to be heard. As you point out, military personnel (infantry) need situational awareness when people might be shooting at them. Combat Vehicle Crew (CVC) helmets in the US Army have hearing protection built in. I know this because on the tank range I failed to have mine on once when the next tank over fired its main gun.
Let me add that the AR15 have been winning those match for God knows how long.
 

Ky Loung

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@A.V.

The OP.

Expect American gun buyers no one wants AK anymore at it current forum. Not even the Russian. Izhmash was part of the sanction that American imposed on the Russian. The majority of their profits came from Americans gun buyers. With that close their profits was no more. It's not because other people making cheap AK. It because there no more buyers of AK other than Americans. Even terrorist don't want AKs.

Other firearms have no trouble copying their designs, like the CZ75, 1911, AR15, etc. It is Americans that keep the world firearms companies in business. Over 200 millions firearms sold to American in the last 14 years. We buy so much firearms that factories could not meet public demands. Ammo supplies in America reached pass the breaking point. Without American gun buyers most of them will go out of business.

Glock 17 is a good choice. I'm surprise they didn't go with the Glock 19. It is consider by everybody the best all around Glock. US Delta use Glock 19 as well as other US special forces. Glock 19 is the best selling model for Glock in the USA for the civilian market. They couldn't make enough to meet supplies.

The gun debate is over in American. The Supreme Count of the USA ruled both time in favor of US gun owners. It is now an individual right, a civil right, and all US/territories must honor the 2nd Amendment.

The question is not new gun laws. The question is which gun laws on the book is unconstitutional. It will be decided by countless lawsuits and countless millions in lawyers fees against the US government.

Hell in the USA you do not even need to be an US citizens to own a gun.

It is political suicide in almost every states supporting gun control. It cost the Democrats almost every states. The vast majority of states are now control by the Republican party. With the ever increasing new generation growing up with playing military games/simulators, these kids will support gun rights. When they are legal (18 years old) their first rifle will be AR15 because that's what the used to when playing video games.
 
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Ky Loung

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Show Show 2015 have come to an end. For those that are interested. Shot Show is the premier firearm trade show convention. It is by far the biggest in the world. It shows the latest advancement in firearms for sale to the world governments and to US general public.

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Redhawk

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Vickers-Berthier Mk III light machine-gun as adopted by the Indian Army in 1933. According to Wiki, a production line for the Vickers-Berthier Light Machine-Gun Mk 3 was established at the Ishapore Rifle Factory.

Was the .303-in. Vickers medium machine-gun manufactured at Ishapore at any time?

Excerpt from Wiki: The Vickers MG remains in service with the Indian, Pakistani, and Nepalese armed forces, as a reserve weapon, intended for emergency use in the event of a major conflict.

So India and Pakistan do keep the Vickers MG, presumably in .303in. or 7.62mm NATO, as a reserve weapon. And why not? If they remain serviceable and still work, then they are perfectly adequate medium machine guns.
 
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Redhawk

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Re: Mg-42



Vickers-Berthier Mk III light machine-gun as adopted by the Indian Army in 1933. According to Wiki, a production line for the Vickers-Berthier Light Machine-Gun Mk 3 was established at the Ishapore Rifle Factory.

Was the .303-in. Vickers medium machine-gun manufactured at Ishapore at any time?

Excerpt from Wiki: The Vickers MG remains in service with the Indian, Pakistani, and Nepalese armed forces, as a reserve weapon, intended for emergency use in the event of a major conflict.

So India and Pakistan do keep the Vickers MG, presumably in .303in. or 7.62mm NATO, as a reserve weapon. And why not? If they remain serviceable and still work, then they are perfectly adequate medium machine guns.
 

grampiguy

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In my time, it was a standard issue and I presume it still is.

Excepting for 'cooking off', it is a great weapon and it has never failed me!
I got some perplexed questions asked by genuine scholars here. They want to know what stops Indian Army from buying some good sniper rifles like Barett M 107 or Remington XM 2010 or Accuracy AS/AW 50 ?? I don't think army would need more than 15000-20000 rifles and that would not cost much. But it will enhance Indian Army's sniper capability many times and snipers are increasingly becoming terrific force multipliers. There is not even technology denial on these items so what is the stumbling block? How come Mumbai Force Commandos can buy them but not Indian Army or BSF who need it more. Even CRPF needs it in central Indian jungles.
 

Ray

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I got some perplexed questions asked by genuine scholars here. They want to know what stops Indian Army from buying some good sniper rifles like Barett M 107 or Remington XM 2010 or Accuracy AS/AW 50 ?? I don't think army would need more than 15000-20000 rifles and that would not cost much. But it will enhance Indian Army's sniper capability many times and snipers are increasingly becoming terrific force multipliers. There is not even technology denial on these items so what is the stumbling block? How come Mumbai Force Commandos can buy them but not Indian Army or BSF who need it more. Even CRPF needs it in central Indian jungles.
Dragunov SVD59 which is used is quite good too.

Has the been any complaints about it?

Initially, we had ammunition shortage, but not so now.

So, why change?

I believe that unless one cannot do his task, he should not clamour for anything new or because someone else has it.

How are the other sniper rifles any better than what we have?

It is the man behind the machine who makes the difference.

A bad carpenter blames his tools

Pakistan had Pattons, the latest in the US inventory, and yet at Asal Uttar, they left behind a graveyard of Pattons created by Indian Army's WWII Shermans.

I am a great adherent of this quote of Rumsfeld
"You Go To War With The Army You Have---not The Army You Might Want Or Wish To Have At A Later Time.
Because if Aunty had gonads, then she would be Uncle! :) (An oft repeated saying I experienced being said when I was in service).
 
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grampiguy

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Dragunov SVD59 which is used is quite good too.

Has the been any complaints about it?

Initially, we had ammunition shortage, but not so now.

So, why change?

I believe that unless one cannot do his task, he should not clamour for anything new or because someone else has it.

How are the other sniper rifles any better than what we have?

It is the man behind the machine who makes the difference.

A bad carpenter blames his tools

Pakistan had Pattons, the latest in the US inventory, and yet at Asal Uttar, they left behind a graveyard of Pattons created by Indian Army's WWII Shermans.

I am a great adherent of this quote of Rumsfeld


Because if Aunty had gonads, then she would be Uncle! :) (An oft repeated saying I experienced being said when I was in service).


With all due respect, Dragunov SVD 59 has maximum range at 800-1000 meters. It also fires 7.62mm and accuracy is not so popular for this rifle. In contrast, M107 or AS50 fire 12.7mm and are quite accurate. And their range is humongous 1800 meter and above. There must be a reason why they claim most of the long distance killing records.

And why can't the service keep 2 varieties of advanced sniper rifles? Is it better to let an Indian soldier die from a Pakistani Barrett M107 rather than him killing the other person? Last year, Pakistani Army was trying hard to get Desert Tech's sniper rifle so Indian complacency is hard to explain.
 

Ray

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With all due respect, Dragunov SVD 59 has maximum range at 800-1000 meters. It also fires 7.62mm and accuracy is not so popular for this rifle. In contrast, M107 or AS50 fire 12.7mm and are quite accurate. And their range is humongous 1800 meter and above. There must be a reason why they claim most of the long distance killing records.

And why can't the service keep 2 varieties of advanced sniper rifles? Is it better to let an Indian soldier die from a Pakistani Barrett M107 rather than him killing the other person? Last year, Pakistani Army was trying hard to get Desert Tech's sniper rifle so Indian complacency is hard to explain.
I am not too sure where you obtained the idea that Draganov is not so accurate and the others are accurate.

Dragonuv SVD
Weight: 9.48 lb (with scope and unloaded magazine)
10.3 lb (SVDS)
9.7 lb (SVU)
11.1 lb (SWD-M)
Cartridge: 7.62x54mmR
Effective Range: 900 yards
Feed System: 10 rd detachable box magazine

M107 .50 Caliber Long Range Sniper Rifle (LRSR)
Maximum Range 7,450 yd (6,812 m)
Maximum Effective Range 2,000 yd (1,829 m)
.50 Browning Machine Gun (12.7 x 99 mm)
Magazine Capacity 10 rounds.
The preferred load is 8 to 9 rounds.
Weight Magazine 10 rounds: 4.12 lb (1.87 kg)
8 rounds: 3.62 lb (1.64 kg)

AS50
Effective firing range 1,800 m
27 lb (12.2 kg) (no scope/sight, empty mag)
Cartridge .50 BMG

What is the weight of the M107?

A sniper operates in two man team (one is the sniper and the other with a standard rifle)
https://archive.org/details/milmanual-us-army-special-operations-sniper-training-and-employment

Check this out

Ten Best Sniper Rifles

There are many issues beyond the mere technical aspects.

To fight a war, one has to minimise the 'tail' i.e. the logistics burden. Thus, the concept of have same calibre for all direct firing weapons and weapons that are same and based on the 'add on' - 'knock off' concept, but then that is not always feasible.

Therefore, the Draganov was accepted since all weapons were in the 7.62 calibre.

.50 cal is basically ideal for an Anti Material Weapon. However, it is heavy and the ammunition is heavier and rounds carried are less. Not that a sniper is to engage in any long prolonged tactical exchange. Yet, having a lighter weapon is a boon for stealth and movement which is paramount for a sniper.

NSG choice of longer range sniper weapon is understandable since they have to operate from a distance as they will be operating in urban areas with obstacles in finding a closer optimum firing space with a clear field of view.
 
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Ray

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Re: Mg-42

Excerpt from Wiki: The Vickers MG remains in service with the Indian, Pakistani, and Nepalese armed forces, as a reserve weapon, intended for emergency use in the event of a major conflict.

So India and Pakistan do keep the Vickers MG, presumably in .303in. or 7.62mm NATO, as a reserve weapon. And why not? If they remain serviceable and still work, then they are perfectly adequate medium machine guns.
I am from the MAHAR Machine Gun Regiment, which was a Regiment with units equipped with Vickers Machine Guns with a quaint system of aiming. Left - right two taps lay!

It was a water cooled gun and so in the 1962 War in the High Altitude the water froze.

It was discontinued thereafter and the Regt was converted to Infantry.

We no longer have Vickers on the Indian Army inventory.

My Regiment's crest (below) indicates A pair of crossed Vickers medium machine guns, mounted on a tripod with a dagger. The dagger was initially the Pillar of Koregaon, where the combined British and Mahar troops defeated the overwhelming Maratha Army. The pillar was subsequently removed and was replaced with a dagger.

 
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Redhawk

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Re: Mg-42

I am from the MAHAR Machine Gun Regiment, which was a Regiment with units equipped with Vickers Machine Guns with a quaint system of aiming. Left - right two taps lay!

It was a water cooled gun and so in the 1962 War in the High Altitude the water froze.

It was discontinued thereafter and the Regt was converted to Infantry.

We no longer have Vickers on the Indian Army inventory.

My Regiment's crest (below) indicates A pair of crossed Vickers medium machine guns, mounted on a tripod with a dagger. The dagger was initially the Pillar of Koregaon, where the combined British and Mahar troops defeated the overwhelming Maratha Army. The pillar was subsequently removed and was replaced with a dagger.

Excellent, Ray. You are a fund of information. :thumb:

When did the Brits and Mahar troops defeat the Maratha Army, Ray? What period are we looking at? And another question on the Vickers, was the Vickers MG ever made at Ishapore?
 

Ray

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grampiguy

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@Ray,

Thanks so much for your clarification.

After this, I am left wondering which Anti-material rifle does the Indian Army have? As far as I can see, OFBs have made a copy of Denel NTW20 called Vidhwansak which is quite heavy (near about 20+kg). Last I checked, Indian Army had refused to buy it. Does that mean Indian Army has urgent shortage for CQB and AMR ?

Additionally, what kind of machine guns do they have? Is there any equivalent to American M134 Gatling or M2 Browning .50cal HMG?

Thanks again.
 
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Blood+

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@Ray,

Thanks so much for your clarification.

After this, I am left wondering which Anti-material rifle does the Indian Army have? As far as I can see, OFBs have made a copy of Denel NTW20 called Vidhwansak which is quite heavy (near about 20+kg). Last I checked, Indian Army had refused to buy it. Does that mean Indian Army has urgent shortage for CQB and AMR ?

Additionally, what kind of machine guns do they have? Is there any equivalent to American M134 Gatling or M2 Browning .50cal HMG?

Thanks again.
I know your question was for @Ray sir,but let me answer it for now.As of now,there is no equivalent to Gatling in Indian Army although there are two primary types of beltfed GPMGs currently in service in Indian Army which are PKM and FN MAG of which the later is license manufactured in the ordnance factories.
The the equivalent to the Browning .50 cal in the Indian Army is the NSV heavy machine guns which are again license built in the ordnance factories.And the Vidhwansak AMR is actually in service with the Indian Army.
 
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grampiguy

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I know your question was for @Ray sir,but let me answer it for now.As of now,there is no equivalent to Gatling in Indian Army although there are two primary types of beltfed GPMGs currently in service in Indian Army which are PKM and FN MAG of which the later is license manufactured in the ordnance factories.
The the equivalent to the Browning .50 cal in the Indian Army is the NSV heavy machine guns which are again license built in the ordnance factories.And the Vidhwansak AMR is actually in service with the Indian Army.

Thanks. So Vidhwansak is in the IA, even after being heavy..
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Dragonuv SVD is a Squad and Platoon weapon, AMRs ( Vidhwansak ) are not authorized weapons, They are available at Company or battalion level ....

Dragonuv SVD has many shortcoming in IA, The rounds we get are not sniper grade but regular 7.62x54r of PKM, There are SVD without scopes due to damage in field and their replacement scopes are no where to be seen as these are imported, Now days many units using 1B1 with scopes and being used as DMR ..

Despite being handicapped, IA Snipers ( Yes Snipers ) are making hit beyond 1500ms range ..

Thanks. So Vidhwansak is in the IA, even after being heavy..
Yep,mostly used by the Rashtrya Rifles.Ask @Kunal Biswas for photographs of Indian Army soldiers operating it.
 
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Redhawk

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Dragunov SVD59 which is used is quite good too.

Has the been any complaints about it?

Initially, we had ammunition shortage, but not so now.

So, why change?

I believe that unless one cannot do his task, he should not clamour for anything new or because someone else has it.

How are the other sniper rifles any better than what we have?

It is the man behind the machine who makes the difference.

A bad carpenter blames his tools

Pakistan had Pattons, the latest in the US inventory, and yet at Asal Uttar, they left behind a graveyard of Pattons created by Indian Army's WWII Shermans.

I am a great adherent of this quote of Rumsfeld


Because if Aunty had gonads, then she would be Uncle! :) (An oft repeated saying I experienced being said when I was in service).
Indeed, a bad tradesman does blame his tools. And the 7,62mm x 54mmR Mosin-Nagant M91/30 bolt-action sniper rifle of World War II vintage was the sniper rifle used by Vietminh, North Vietnamese, and NLF/PLAF guerrillas against their enemies in the Indochina Wars (1946-54 & 1960-75) and they found this weapon to be very accurate and more than adequate for their purposes. They had no need of a self-loading sniper rifle like the SVD/Dragunov. I, too, would prefer a bolt-action sniper rifle to a self-loading rifle for actual sniping.

I dislike change for the sake of change. If something works and it is proven to be adequate or more than adequate then I see no reason to change it. So it is I have disliked the change in NATO small-arms ammunition from the calibre 7,62mm to 5,56mm.

Individually, a person's skill in the use of arms or collectively, better tactics in the use of arms coupled with better individual skill will overcome an enemy that is better-armed, better-equipped, and even on occasion, better-supplied.

I must disagree with Ray that the M47 and M48 "Patton" tanks used by the Pakistani Army in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 were the latest in the U.S. Army's inventory: The M47 and M48 tanks were the first generation of post-World War II American tanks. The M60 main battle tank was latest tank in the U.S. Army's inventory in 1965. The M60 tank was actually quite a good tank and was a great product of the Cold War. It was in production from 1960 to 1987, if I recall correctly. And quite a few Cold-war allies of the U.S. and several technically non-aligned countries used it.

I can remember the Australian Army testing the M60 tank in the 1970s and there was some pressure put on the Australian government to adopt the tank to replace the Centurion, but the Australian Army opted for the West-German Leopard 1, and the Leopard proved a excellent choice for Australian conditions.

And, indeed, if, if, if...if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.
 
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