Russia says in race to bag mega sub deal

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

It is considered an outsider in the race to bag the Indian navy's contract for a new generation, long endurance conventional submarine but Russia maintains it is a strong contender as it will soon have the Air Independent Propulsion.
It was the lack of the AIP, which drastically increases the capability of a submarine to stay underwater by reducing dependence on compressed oxygen to burn fuel, that was seen as a disadvantage to Russia's participation in the navy's Project 75I to procure six new generation conventional submarines. Conventional submarines can stay underwater for a few days but those equipped with AIP can stay submerged for more than three weeks, giving the operator advantage in terms of stealthy operations and sneak attacks.

Russian designers said the system will be ready by 2016 and may even be fitted on Russian vessels by 2018. "The AIP is no longer a stumbling block to our participation in the P 75I," Andrey Baranov, deputy director general of the Rubin Design Bureau, said. "We will have a prototype of the system ready and in place by 2016."

Russia has offered to help the DRDO develop an indigenous version of the AIP, Baranov said and stressed that India was unlikely to find other partners who would share such critical technology.

"The main difference between our system and others in the world is that we do not store hydrogen onboard but generate it. We also use standard diesel that the submarine has," Rubin Design Bureau chief designer Igor Molchanov said. This, he said, makes the Russian AIP stealthier than the French and frees it of the need for shore-based hydrogen generating facilities which are required by the German system.

Both the French DCNS and the German HDW are strong competitors for the P 75I contract, which will be one of the largest global tenders in terms of money. There has, however, been delay in floating a tender though the decision to procure the submarines — to restore India's edge in underwater operations in the region —was taken years ago.

The correspondent is in Russia at the invitation of the United Shipbuilding Corp.

Russia says in race to bag mega sub deal - Indian Express

 

[Ray]

The Russians will be new to the technology and so there is the possibilities that there will be glitches.

It would be better to bank on time tested designs that has overcome the bugs than newly implemented designs, as would be the case of the Russians..

 

[TrueSpirit]

Makes complete sense as @Ray Sir said : better to rely on time-tested AIP technology.

Let the Russians themselves bring their onboard hydrogen generation tech. to maturity, which can only happen in due course.

 

[kaustav2001]

The Russians will be new to the technology and so there is the possibilities that there will be glitches.
It would be better to bank on time tested designs that has overcome the bugs than newly implemented designs, as would be the case of the Russians..

+1 to that. Not to mention we'll only end up bankrolling further upgrades/ fixes to their AIP program which in no time will they put up for sale to China.

 

[sob]

The Russians will be new to the technology and so there is the possibilities that there will be glitches.

It would be better to bank on time tested designs that has overcome the bugs than newly implemented designs, as would be the case of the Russians..

Sir, this was true for the stealth fighter too, yet we went with the Russians. Their offer of complete TOT will be too irresistible for our babus in MOD and DRDO.

 

[Ray]

Sir, this was true for the stealth fighter too, yet we went with the Russians. Their offer of complete TOT will be too irresistible for our babus in MOD and DRDO.

I presume it was because no one else was ready to share technology with India except Russia.

And Russia was not financially in a good position to take on the project themselves, IIRC.

Yes, TOT is a very important input since that will not makes us susceptible to sanctions.

 

[p2prada]

Sir, this was true for the stealth fighter too, yet we went with the Russians. Their offer of complete TOT will be too irresistible for our babus in MOD and DRDO.

It isn't exactly right. FGFA is not PAKFA. Meaning FGFA will come online 5-7 years after PAKFA is operational. PAKFA is set to be operational in 2016 in squadron strength while FGFA is expected to be in squadron strength in 2022. That's a lot of time to fix most of the PAKFA related bugs on FGFA and saves us the hassle.

But I agree that going for a proven option is the best.

Nevertheless we will need to wait and see what the Russian Navy does and how long our own deal will take to fructify. We sent the RFP out only recently. After this they are going to do tech evaluations and the bidding process which may take 4-5 years after which they are going to have to start contract negotiations. If we sign for the first sub to be inducted sometime in 2020, the Russian systems may mature by then, especially if the Russian Navy orders AIP with their Lada class subs. They have ordered 8 for the class of subs they are offering to India. The only drawback is that the Chinese may also order 4 subs of the same class with AIP.

And Russia was not financially in a good position to take on the project themselves, IIRC.

The thing about the Russians being broke was true 11 years ago, when the project started. Now they are richer than we are with all their petro-moolah. Their revenues are three times ours while their foreign exchange is twice ours.

Their defence budget was less than ours ($12 Billion vs $11 Billion) when they needed a partner for PAKFA and today it is around $35 Billion more than ours ($46 Billion vs $80 Billion). The govt plans to increase the budget to around $100 Billion in 2015, that's over twice our budget.

Thank UPA for it.

Before India entered the FGFA project, the Russians had officially announced that they will go ahead with PAKFA regardless of India's support.

 

[Austin]

They have ordered 8 for the class of subs they are offering to India

I am not sure how the 8 figure came up but the Lada project so far has the following goal

The first 677 Lada the only operational subs is under going trials , the problems with Sensors has been sorted out reportedly the new Lira sonar took long time to get fixed plus other small things. The problem with the first sub is that it is under powered and this thing cant be fixed.

The second 677 submariner will fix the power issue with new machinery and it will be a modified 677 submarine and will use new generation of Lithium-Ion Batter instead of older chemical types .....so it will give far more power over current types.

The third submarine will be further modified type that will use AIP of new generation that can use diesel as fuel , So that will have Li-Ion Battery and AIP.

So far they will build these types and fix all issue before series production begins

First anaerobic system for Lada non-nuclear submarines due 2016 - Navy's Commander | Russia & India Report

Meanwhile they are building more 636-03 types for their own navy and likely when Lada gets what they want they will move to series production of next gen submarine.

 

[p2prada]

I am not sure how the 8 figure came up but the Lada project so far has the following goal

Early 2000s numbers.

The third submarine will be further modified type that will use AIP of new generation that can use diesel as fuel , So that will have Li-Ion Battery and AIP.

I knew about the first two, but this is the first I heard about it. I mean the Russians want AIP on their Lada.

Regardless, Lada class will possibly be one of the two operational subs with all IN specific requirements fulfilled when our deal goes under the hammer.

IN's Scorpene and Brazil's Scorpene will come with AIPs in 2017 and 2015 resply. I don't know about the Brazilian sub, but the IN's Scorpene is smaller than what is being offered for the the P-75A, and not the same version either.

Spain's first S-80 will be operational in 2015 with AIP.

That makes Type 212/214 the only operational sub with AIP.

Then there's Sweden's Gotland and the next gen A36. No idea if they will reply to IN's RFP.

 

[hello_10]

I presume it was because no one else was ready to share technology with India except Russia.

And Russia was not financially in a good position to take on the project themselves, IIRC.

Yes, TOT is a very important input since that will not makes us susceptible to sanctions.

thats the main issue. for example, if we compare SU30mki deal of India with Rafale, then we know that you may get few higher techs but even if you may get 70%+ tech transfer in Rafale deal then also you will be lucky. while Su30mki came with 100% tech transfer over the period of time, from raw to products, while its also fit in comparison to Rafale, a 4++ generation aircraft too....

we also have example of Scorpion Submarines Deal from France too. over 300% price hike has been taken place to date, with 4 years + delay to date, considering the best scenario of its delivery from 2016+......

while Im mainly fan of China, whose submarines are of no comparison to the Western ones, but they have their technologies by themselves. and considering successful induction of Akula 2 recently, we find only Russia providing the Submarines, which are of the comparison to European ones, with full tech transfer over the period of time too :thumb:

i mean, you would either build arms by yourself like China, or go for the 100% tech transfer deals only, to help your domestic submarine projects too

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Russian hydrogen based batteries are most dangerous to IN crew till date, All these batteries are replaced with German batteries..

Russian offers are attractive both Politically and economically, But not very safe for crew who operate them..

French can provide TOT and in due time DRDO will come up with its..
@Decklander

 

[lookieloo]

Spain's first S-80 will be operational in 2015 with AIP.

Yeah... that's not gonna happen. In case you missed it: £2 billion Spanish navy submarine will sink to bottom of sea - Telegraph Even with American help fixing it, they're still looking at an extra two years.

As for the rest, the German boats are probably too small for India's purposes and the Australians have already had bad luck modifying a Swedish design for a similar operational environment to India's.

The best AIP boats right now are Japan's, but they have issues with weapons export. However, there are some noises about cooperation with Australia, which is looking to build the largest AIP subs ever designed. http://asw.newpacificinstitute.org/?p=11560 Perhaps India could join the venture in some way or another.

... or you could just sign up for another *equal partnership* with Russia...

 

[hello_10]

Russian hydrogen based batteries are most dangerous to IN crew till date, All these batteries are replaced with German batteries..

Russian offers are attractive both Politically and economically, But not very safe for crew who operate them..

French can provide TOT and in due time DRDO will come up with its..
@Decklander

naah, we have news that they made much noise while transferring technology of even Scorpion Submarines, even after 250% price hike with around 5 years delay to date..... please check, they aren't willing to transfer their key techs of the current Scorpion deal, then how is it expected that they would do the same for the Project75I deal?????

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We don't have many choices..

1. DRDO..
2. French..
3. Russians AIP..

naah, we have news that they made much noise while transferring technology of even Scorpion Submarines, even after 250% price hike with around 5 years delay to date..... please check, they aren't willing to transfer their key techs of the current Scorpion deal, then how is it expected that they would do the same for the Project75I deal?????

 

[Decklander]

Russian hydrogen based batteries are most dangerous to IN crew till date, All these batteries are replaced with German batteries..

Russian offers are attractive both Politically and economically, But not very safe for crew who operate them..

French can provide TOT and in due time DRDO will come up with its..
@Decklander

I must admit that I am a fan of Russian Submarine tech and also their ships design. They are way ahead of west in submarine building and design. The latest AIP from Russia seems very promising provided it is as reliable as well and we do not face problems of spares.
Hydrogen is problem in all batteries which we have irrespective of origin. This is a problem which every deisel-electric sub faces.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yes, But i case of Kilos we have many upgrades specially Kilo 636 type so does on 877 units later when procured..

The main concern and replacement were always the batteries..

Hydrogen is problem in all batteries which we have irrespective of origin. This is a problem which every deisel-electric sub faces.

 

[Decklander]

Kilo class is also called the black hole. It is so silent underwater.

 

[p2prada]

I must admit that I am a fan of Russian Submarine tech and also their ships design. They are way ahead of west in submarine building and design.

Pointed this out time and time again, but there are no takers for it. Everything Russian is supposed to be junk and this is only specific to this forum on the internet, surprisingly.

@Armand2REP

 

[p2prada]

Perhaps India could join the venture in some way or another.

We have plans of building 12 subs at home starting sometime around 2030 using an indigenous design. That's after the P-75A is complete.

... or you could just sign up for another *equal partnership* with Russia...

Regardless of the silly sarcasm, I will answer this as well. The Italian S1000 is an Amur 950 and is a JV.

Overall, we seem to be headed towards a JV in sub design and production. But this is yet to be seen and any decision will be taken after the P-75A decision is made.

Anyway, Arihant has a lot of Russian input. We don't know to what extent, but Rubin is involved in the project. One of the smart moves we made and has removed unnecessary delays.

 

[lookieloo]

Regardless of the silly sarcasm, I will answer this as well. The Italian S1000 is an Amur 950 and is a JV.

Yes, a joint venture to sell something to India and other third parties (Italy buys German for its own navy). A rather puzzling combination given that Amur itself is the export variant of a sub (the Lada-class) that the Russians themselves are off and on about. Methinks perhaps the Russian navy, having previously rejected the Lada design, was ordered to buy it for international marketing purposes. The situation is further complicated by reports of Ladas (on which the Amurs are based) being offered to China as well.

Silly indeed.