INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[nishantgupta]

3 different type of fighters on a single aircraft and that too none of them indigenous? It sounds like an expensive proposition...

 

[binayak95]

hmmm, having only F35b on IAC-2 in its current form is all about helping the enemies which we don't want, until its manufacturer achieve the minimum expected performance level for F35b which they haven't reached yet...... it may hardly be used for those operations where being undetected/ key stealth capabilities would be the key. and hence, I would favor 30 Rafale + 30 Mig29k + 5 F35b, for the expected IAC-2 of the capability of 65 fixed wing aircraft, among the best available aircrafts in today's world, considering the next batch of Mig29k will have many techs of Mig35, composite materials/AESA etc :ranger:

also, having 5-6 F35b on IAC-2 will also help us in our AMCA project for IAC-3, which would be a Super Carrier, hopefully on water from 2030+ :thumb:

I still feel that the F-35b is too damn expensive for our requirements. IAC-II will have 65 aircraft onboard but I believe the best combo would be 25 Mig29k 25 rafale, 3 E3 and 7 ASW helicopters. No need for F-35b and frankly not wanted either

 

[Crusader53]

I still feel that the F-35b is too damn expensive for our requirements. IAC-II will have 65 aircraft onboard but I believe the best combo would be 25 Mig29k 25 rafale, 3 E3 and 7 ASW helicopters. No need for F-35b and frankly not wanted either

So, in another 10-15 years you believe your mix fleet of Mig-29K's and Rafales. Would survive against Advanced Air Defense Networks and New 5th Generation Fighters like the PAK-FA, F-22, F-35, J-20, and J-31???? (maybe others)

 

[Crusader53]

Funny, F-35B has been grounded since 16 Jan...

F-35B Flights Suspended Following Fueldraulic Failure | Defense News | defensenews.com

They are also willing to cut corners to get it produced = bad MoJo

Very Minor Issue

 

[Crusader53]

I am sure it was binayak95's personal opinion. Having said that, you seem to have assumed that a non-American fighter will drop out of the sky at the slightest change of wind! Comparing histories.... India is the land of Gandhi. That would mean we should not be buying any weapons at all...Russian, American or Martian.

We should look at purchasing platforms which give us the best value for our rupees. American offensive platforms have till date failed to provide the same and hence seem to have lost out on most of our proposals for the same. Offer us a good deal on an operational F-35B and then lets see what flies from an Indian carrier.

We are talking about Weapons of War. Which, is not to say India or any country for that matter doesn't want value. Yet, for example the F-15 is half the price of an F-22. Yet, the latter likely have a exchange rate several time that at least. So, only thing cheaper gets you is dead. So, really which type is a better value???

 

[Yusuf]

Can expect a navalized AMCA on the IAC-II

 

[binayak95]

@crusader in another 10-15 years I expect the naval AMCA to be inducted. Till then the rafales and the mig-29k will suffice against the likes of junk-31. I don't think we will going up against the f-22 or the PAK FA or the f-35!!!

 

[Crusader53]

Can expect a navalized AMCA on the IAC-II

The land based AMCA is a good 15-20 years off from Design, Development, Production, and in Service Date. Then you would have wait another several more years until a naval variant would be ready. So, my guess is India is going to have purchase something between now and then. Which, is likely going to be the F-35 as it is the only viable option in my opinion. I know a lot of people don't want to hear that on this forum. Yet, it is what it is........(hate that term but it applies)

 

[Crusader53]

@crusader in another 10-15 years I expect the naval AMCA to be inducted. Till then the rafales and the mig-29k will suffice against the likes of junk-31. I don't think we will going up against the f-22 or the PAK FA or the f-35!!!

Sorry, it will take that long for the IAF to get the Rafale into Service. The AMCA hasn't even flown a prototype. As a matter of fact the design hasn't even been frozen yet. At least not to my knowledge.....



As for what the Indian Navy may face. I think you left out possible Chinese Designs like the J-20 and/or J-31. Plus, who says the IN or IAF won't face the PAK-FA??? Couldn't India face PLAN or PLAAF Flankers? Who knows who Russia mite sell PAK-FA's too!

 

[nishantgupta]

We are talking about Weapons of War. Which, is not to say India or any country for that matter doesn't want value. Yet, for example the F-15 is half the price of an F-22. Yet, the latter likely have a exchange rate several time that at least. So, only thing cheaper gets you is dead. So, really which type is a better value???

By that logic, USA should replace all its F-15's & F-16's with F-22's ASAP....

While on the topic, we are comparing an F-35 with a Rafale...Putting this comparison on the same scale as an F-15 and an F-22 is a huge overstatement which I am sure you will agree with. F-35 is a "still to be proven" 5th gen and Rafale is a proven 4++ gen with the only thing missing being stealth which in any way F-35 does not have in plenty. Hence my point of "Value".

IMO the only fighter with stealth to talk of is F-22 at present which is not for sale. Any other fighter including the PAK-FA and F-35 needs to first prove its stealth (in public) with adequate armament to be called a fighter.

Also, as an Indian, I dont want anyone coming on board an Indian aircraft carrier to check out the planes on board....not to mention having a permanent scare in my mind of sudden lack of support due to whatever reasons. Both these points (including the others regarding TOT's) are true and present dangers with all equipment american.

 

[Crusader53]

By that logic, USA should replace all its F-15's & F-16's with F-22's ASAP....

While on the topic, we are comparing an F-35 with a Rafale...Putting this comparison on the same scale as an F-15 and an F-22 is a huge overstatement which I am sure you will agree with. F-35 is a "still to be proven" 5th gen and Rafale is a proven 4++ gen with the only thing missing being stealth which in any way F-35 does not have in plenty. Hence my point of "Value".

IMO the only fighter with stealth to talk of is F-22 at present which is not for sale. Any other fighter including the PAK-FA and F-35 needs to first prove its stealth (in public) with adequate armament to be called a fighter.

Also, as an Indian, I dont want anyone coming on board an Indian aircraft carrier to check out the planes on board....not to mention having a permanent scare in my mind of sudden lack of support due to whatever reasons. Both these points (including the others regarding TOT's) are true and present dangers with all equipment american.

You condemn what you don't understand...

 

[nishantgupta]

You condemn what you don't understand...

Please make me understand. That is why I am coming to this forum. To understand..... So Please make me. But don't give reasons which end up meaning that something is good just because it is American technology and something else is a flying coffin because it is not.

 

[Patriot]

Sorry, it will take that long for the IAF to get the Rafale into Service. The AMCA hasn't even flown a prototype. As a matter of fact the design hasn't even been frozen yet. At least not to my knowledge.....



As for what the Indian Navy may face. I think you left out possible Chinese Designs like the J-20 and/or J-31. Plus, who says the IN or IAF won't face the PAK-FA??? Couldn't India face PLAN or PLAAF Flankers? Who knows who Russia mite sell PAK-FA's too!

& what if america gifts F-35 to it's terrorist partner Pakistan for free like F-16s, P-3Cs & what not.

Look stop your pathetic sales preaching for a white elephant as it can never have a zero figure.

 

[Patriot]

By that logic, USA should replace all its F-15's & F-16's with F-22's ASAP....

While on the topic, we are comparing an F-35 with a Rafale...Putting this comparison on the same scale as an F-15 and an F-22 is a huge overstatement which I am sure you will agree with. F-35 is a "still to be proven" 5th gen and Rafale is a proven 4++ gen with the only thing missing being stealth which in any way F-35 does not have in plenty. Hence my point of "Value".

IMO the only fighter with stealth to talk of is F-22 at present which is not for sale. Any other fighter including the PAK-FA and F-35 needs to first prove its stealth (in public) with adequate armament to be called a fighter.

Americans can't afford F-22 that is why F-35 is being developed. To me it seems F-22 is not something practical to maintain & there are many problems like high maintenance time, low sortie rate, malfunctioned on-board oxygen supply system etc etc. May be F-22 pilots' confidence is also not high after the last crash.

Also, as an Indian, I dont want anyone coming on board an Indian aircraft carrier to check out the planes on board....not to mention having a permanent scare in my mind of sudden lack of support due to whatever reasons. Both these points (including the others regarding TOT's) are true and present dangers with all equipment american.

Above all F-35's shall carry a KILL SWITCH.

 

[trackwhack]

You condemn what you don't understand...

That's such an out dude. If you cannot counter his points, you accept they are valid.

 

[nishantgupta]

Americans can't afford F-22 that is why F-35 is being developed. To me it seems F-22 is not something practical to maintain & there are many problems like high maintenance time, low sortie rate, malfunctioned on-board oxygen supply system etc etc.

Exactly my point of "Value" which America follows but possibly Americans don't preach for others.

 

[Crusader53]

Please make me understand. That is why I am coming to this forum. To understand..... So Please make me. But don't give reasons which end up meaning that something is good just because it is American technology and something else is a flying coffin because it is not.

The US is in the process of retiring its current fleet of 4th Generation Fighters. (F-15, F-16, AV-8, F/A-18, etc.) In addition its sole 4.5 Generation Fighter (Super Hornet) is nearly out of production. While, India has yet to start production on the Rafale. As a matter of fact the US, China, and Russia are all moving forward with 5th Generation Designs. (with many others likely to follow) So, what value is the Rafale to the IAF. Especially, when the Rafale won't enter service for a number of years. Wouldn't it make far more sense for India to purchase and build a 5th Generation Design that wouldn't be nearly obsolete by time it reaches service????

 

[nishantgupta]

When did anyone say that India is not planning a 5th generation fighter? We have already invested in the Russian FGFA which you have already mentioned in your post. We have almost frozen on designs for our own AMCA which is also a 5th generation fighter in the medium weight category.

Our primary "enemies" remain China and Pakistan. Pakistan has nothing more than a handful of F-16's along with other Junk Fighters which the producing nation itself has not inducted. In the future (15 years down the line maybe), naval Rafales will be more than handful for whatever Pakistan can muster by then.

Chinese 5th generation fighters have just flown a prototype each. No one knows if the fighter inside the prototype is anything more than the J-10's. Again, no clue when they will have a fighter fleet and carriers good enough to come near Indian shores. By then we will possibly have naval AMCA in the air and hopefully the AURA would have seen light as well.

i don't see any worries for the Indian navy fighting power in air or in water unless the US is planning to come knocking.....is it?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The US is in the process of retiring its current fleet of 4th Generation Fighters. (F-15, F-16, AV-8, F/A-18, etc.) In addition its sole 4.5 Generation Fighter (Super Hornet) is nearly out of production. While, India has yet to start production on the Rafale. As a matter of fact the US, China, and Russia are all moving forward with 5th Generation Designs. (with many others likely to follow) So, what value is the Rafale to the IAF. Especially, when the Rafale won't enter service for a number of years. Wouldn't it make far more sense for India to purchase and build a 5th Generation Design that wouldn't be nearly obsolete by time it reaches service????

i agree rafael will never be a state of the art and prime air superiority will be pak-fa and pmf by the end of this decade like su-30mki was in the last decade.also rafeal can handle non stealth missions like it demostrated in missions in libya ands mali.rafael will play the roll of a gap filler since large no. of mig-21's are retiring this decade and the tejas mk2 is not a mature platform till say 2018.also 126 isn't a very big no.

 

[Crusader53]

When did anyone say that India is not planning a 5th generation fighter? We have already invested in the Russian FGFA which you have already mentioned in your post. We have almost frozen on designs for our own AMCA which is also a 5th generation fighter in the medium weight category.

Our primary "enemies" remain China and Pakistan. Pakistan has nothing more than a handful of F-16's along with other Junk Fighters which the producing nation itself has not inducted. In the future (15 years down the line maybe), naval Rafales will be more than handful for whatever Pakistan can muster by then.

Chinese 5th generation fighters have just flown a prototype each. No one knows if the fighter inside the prototype is anything more than the J-10's. Again, no clue when they will have a fighter fleet and carriers good enough to come near Indian shores. By then we will possibly have naval AMCA in the air and hopefully the AURA would have seen light as well.

i don't see any worries for the Indian navy fighting power in air or in water unless the US is planning to come knocking.....is it?

I think we need to break this down......

1.) The AMCA is a paper airplane at this stage and if the LCA is any example. We are not likely to see the former for a good 15-20 years. (maybe more)

2.) India at this stage at least only plans on procuring ~200 FGFA (PAKFA) from Russia. While it may purchase more down the road. India is not likely procure the type in vast numbers. Plus, I would add that Russia has had no problem selling its most advance hardware to India's enemies. As with the Flanker in the case of China. So, if the China fails to develop its own 5th Generation Fighters. (i.e. J-20, J-31, etc.) It could purchase the PAK-FA. Hell, I could see China building its own and still purchasing a number of PAK-FA's. My God India could face PAK-FA's, J-20's, J-31's etc. etc. Which, is a real possibility!

3.) While, Pakistan is only a moderate threat today to the IAF. That could change very quickly with China as a Partner. As it can provide Advance 5th Generation Fighters anytime if chooses. This would mean India could face such types on two fronts!

4.) The next war is never the same as the last! History has proven this time and time again. So, India has to defend against not just the likely threats but many that are unforeseen today.

5.) Carrier Aircraft are most often outnumber for obvious reasons. So, if an Aircraft Carrier is likely to survive in combat and accomplish its mission. It needs the most capable aircraft available.