INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[lookieloo]

@J20!
@p2prada

I think you're both getting carried away with what your respective favorites will actually haul on combat missions. MTOW is rarely used on any fighter and range is subject to a number of factors outside the aircraft itself.

 

[p2prada]

@J20!

Rafale can carry 9.5 tons of external munitions but half of that figure is taken up by fuel. That leaves only 5 tons for weapons carriage, but WHERE EXACTLY WILL RAFALE MOUNT 4 1000KG BOMBS IF 3 OF ITS 5 PYLONS RATED FOR 2000lb BOMBS ARE TAKEN UP BY 2000L EFT'S? Rafale, if carrying the 3 EFT's it needs to challenge F35's range, can only carry 2 1000kg boms Prada.

I agree, it is one or the other, not both.

Anyway, I already gave you the figures for range.

With 3 drop tanks, the Rafale manages a range of 3600Km. With internal fuel, F-35A would be at 2200 Km. Halve both and we have 1800 Km for Rafale and 1100 Km for F-35A. With only internal fuel, Rafale's combat radius is said to be a little over 1000 Km. Very similar to F-35A.

CFTs, yeah it is an option on Rafale. We know the CFTs can handle another 2300 L of fuel. F-35's CFTs are yet unknown.

That's not an overstatement in any form, F35 was designed to haul this weapons load anywhere within 1000km, check if you doubt me.

I did not dispute it. I gave you a figure of 900Km for a fully loaded F-35.

To sum it up.

F-35 has a higher fuel fraction with internal fuel load. Rafale has a higher fuel fraction if we add 2 1250 L EFTs and greater.

For F-35A, fuel fraction is 38.36%. - Best config, 6x 1000 Kg bombs. 2 internal + 4 external. But shitty range.
Rafale - internal fuel, it is 33.09%. - Best config, 5x 1000 Kg bombs. But even more shitty range.

Rafale - 2 2000 L tanks, it is 45.4%.- Best config, 3x 1000 Kg bombs.
Rafale - 3 2000 L tanks, it is 50%. - Best config, 2x 1000 Kg bombs.
Rafale - 2 1250 L tanks, it is 41.35%. - Best config, 3x 1000 Kg bombs.

F-35A - 2 1500 L tanks, it is 44.5%. - Best config, 4x 1000 Kg bombs.

Figures change drastically in favor of Rafale if we use CFTs and is an advantage since F-35's CFTs are not even close to being ready. Drag also affects the range and so does altitude. Engine power difference matters too. Rafale has 15 tonnes of thrust vs F-35A's 19 tonnes of thrust.

I would simply say the bomb carrying capacity and range are actually similar when carrying 1000 Kg bombs while it shifts between the two when we use lower capacity bombs between SDB/Brimstone class to 500 Kg LGB class.

I think you're both getting carried away with what your respective favorites will actually haul on combat missions. MTOW is rarely used on any fighter and range is subject to a number of factors outside the aircraft itself.

Neither are my favorite. I merely stick to Rafale for IAF while I support F-35C for the Navy.

 

[J20!]

@J20!
@p2prada

I think you're both getting carried away with what your respective favorites will actually haul on combat missions. MTOW is rarely used on any fighter and range is subject to a number of factors outside the aircraft itself.

I have no favorite among them, just giving credit were credit is due.

Even without EFT's, F35 is an A2G beast, in payload, range and its stealth in delivering that payload. With the EFT's and CFT's the Israelis have been contracted to develop, it'll be unassailable in it's medium weight class.

 

[Austin]

Indian Navy mainstay Fighter Mig-29K

[video=youtube_share;TqeG0jcES6s]http://youtu.be/TqeG0jcES6s[/video]

 

[lookieloo]

Indian Navy mainstay Fighter Mig-29K

Good show, but I'm not really sure how it applies to the IAC II... unless the 29s can somehow be modified for CATOBAR ops (which would be totally boss BTW).

 

[WMD]

Good show, but I'm not really sure how it applies to the IAC II... unless the 29s can somehow be modified for CATOBAR ops (which would be totally boss BTW).

all the current orders for 29k and N-LCA would b based on vikramaditya and vikrant(IAC-I),
Vishal(IAC-II) would hav a CATOBAR fighter not MiG-29K or N-LCA.

 

[Crusader53]

all the current orders for 29k and N-LCA would b based on vikramaditya and vikrant(IAC-I),
Vishal(IAC-II) would hav a CATOBAR fighter not MiG-29K or N-LCA.

Which, is not to say the Mig-29K or N-LCA couldn't be modified to operate from CATOBAR Carriers. Yet, that is no likely to happen. Of course the final IAC-2 Design and not been approved. Nonetheless, the odds are India will select the Rafale but I am still holding out for the F-35C.

 

[Rahul Singh]

That's... still pretty optimistic. Flying, land-based prototypes, yes. IOC CATOBAR version? I rather doubt it.

Yes that's overly optimistic, i would even say that.

CATOBAR? No, certainly not before 2028, given timeline is for Air Force version. Besides, interesting thing is, we are not expected to have a CATOBAR carrier much before 2028. So in effect it doesn't matters much.

Anyway, my optimism is based on my hopes which are pinned on two feeder programs preceding AMCA, namely LCA MK-2 (for bulk of electronics -- avionics and all) and PMFA/FGFA for whatever foreseeable is.

Since long it is being said LCA Mk-2 will feature 5th generation systems, and that would be more than just AESA (will be retrofitted, not produced with) and internal smart EW, say smart cockpit etc. May be they will also develop what they are calling 'Pilot Assist' by MK-2, apart from what are classified or simply not known.

The PMFA program on other hand will give designers first insight into 5th generation fighter which will be simply invaluable. And since it will be partially designed and fully tested in India, it will generate good volume of experience, be it at test pilot level or designers or manufacturer. This is something which will then be passed to AMCA program as Corrected Knowledge. Needless to say, this will help cut down good on what is unforeseeable for us because of our inexperience.

From what i can deduce from new proposed timeline for first flight (earlier it was 2017) is, they are taking different approach from LCA this time and want to have bulk of sub-systems ready before commencing flight test program. This approach seems smart to me considering our past experiences and availability of two programs whose timelines and structures are prefect for feeder job. And this will surely boost confidence of concerned parties.

The real problem however as today is development of powerplant for which GTRE is looking for an experienced partner. A lot will depend on its progress. It however is other thing that there is plan B (not official) in form of a custom developed F-414 EPE's version, which can certainly be used for flight testing and for MK-1 production models, that all if of course US stays cooperative and our government continues to be serious about AMCA.

 

[SilentKiller]

Which, is not to say the Mig-29K or N-LCA couldn't be modified to operate from CATOBAR Carriers. Yet, that is no likely to happen. Of course the final IAC-2 Design and not been approved. Nonetheless, the odds are India will select the Rafale but I am still holding out for the F-35C.

Or india might go for naval version of PAKFA...or....AMCA:thumb:
We all have to wait and see.

 

[cloud]

I have always hoped that IN or IAF could order F35Bs in at-least in 40 numbers, irrespective of, if IN has any plan or not for them. They are just too unique in one dept (vertical take off and landing).

1. They can always be used a force multiplier using LHD/LPD etc alongside a carrier.
2. During peace time they can be stored hidden near coastal areas (almost impossible for enemy to detect them). Meaning ,much more survivability in case of preemptive attack.
3. Possibility of taking Nuke carrying missiles(will have to niggle with US, but might be possible, off-course officially for conventional weapons ), meaning can be stored anywhere in India individually(don't need to be near airfield), much better then our current fighters.
4. Stealth (an added advantage with any of the point mentioned).
5. In the end if US does turn against India after a decade or so, then we can always do a postmortem. . I really doubt that any other country will have such techs in future.

 

[Crusader53]

I have always hoped that IN or IAF could order F35Bs in at-least in 40 numbers, irrespective of, if IN has any plan or not for them. They are just too unique in one dept (vertical take off and landing).

1. They can always be used a force multiplier using LHD/LPD etc alongside a carrier.
2. During peace time they can be stored hidden near coastal areas (almost impossible for enemy to detect them). Meaning ,much more survivability in case of preemptive attack.
3. Possibility of taking Nuke carrying missiles(will have to niggle with US, but might be possible, off-course officially for conventional weapons ), meaning can be stored anywhere in India individually(don't need to be near airfield), much better then our current fighters.
4. Stealth (an added advantage with any of the point mentioned).
5. In the end if US does turn against India after a decade or so, then we can always do a postmortem. . I really doubt that any other country will have such techs in future.

You make some excellent points. Really, the beauty of the F-35 is it's available in three models. Including two Naval Models the STOVL F-35B and CTOL F-35C. So, India could operate F-35C's from all of its New Aircraft Carriers. Which, could be supported by F-35B's operating from Amphibious Ships.

This have several advantages from consolidating the number of Types all the way to Logistics, Supply Chain, and Training. Plus, both types can support the others operations. Which, is extremely important as India will only have a limited number of Air Capable Ships. (i.e. Carriers & LHD's)

 

[arnabmit]

Is this a F-35 thread?

 

[pmaitra]

Is this a F-35 thread?

Please read the post again.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...al-iac-ii-aircraft-carrier-13.html#post695429

 

[arnabmit]

Sorry, my vague attempt at sarcasm... as in this IACII thread only the merits & demerits of F-35 is being discussed for the last few pages.

Please read the post again.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...al-iac-ii-aircraft-carrier-13.html#post695429

 

[pmaitra]

Sorry, my vague attempt at sarcasm... as in this IACII thread only the merits & demerits of F-35 is being discussed for the last few pages.

Merits and demerits of any aircraft for potential use on our ACs should be acceptable.

 

[lookieloo]

You make some excellent points. Really, the beauty of the F-35 is it's available in three models. Including two Naval Models the STOVL F-35B and CTOL F-35C. So, India could operate F-35C's from all of its New Aircraft Carriers. Which, could be supported by F-35B's operating from Amphibious Ships.

This have several advantages from consolidating the number of Types all the way to Logistics, Supply Chain, and Training. Plus, both types can support the others operations. Which, is extremely important as India will only have a limited number of Air Capable Ships. (i.e. Carriers & LHD's)

The F-35C is almost certainly too heavy to operate effectively off of the IN's STOBAR carriers; IAC II is the only chance it has. As for the LHDs... I'll speak to that on the proper topic.

 

[bhramos]

Future concept with Rafales

 

[lookieloo]

Future concept with Rafales

Christ... someone's been hanging out on Nation-States.

 

[Crusader53]

The F-35C is almost certainly too heavy to operate effectively off of the IN's STOBAR carriers; IAC II is the only chance it has. As for the LHDs... I'll speak to that on the proper topic.

Your guess and have no idea...........please.

 

[lookieloo]

Your guess and have no idea...........please.

A guess based on the F-35C's lackluster T2W ratio with normal load. Not a deal-breaker for IAC II, but problematic on a ramp. Might not fit down the Vikramaditya's elevator hole anyways... but that's a discussion for another thread.