Comparing Indian Destroyers with Type 45 Destroyers of The Royal Navy.

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra,

Are there more pics ?

Thnx..

Plenty show up, but you have to be careful. Sometimes, the pics that show up are of a different class. I found these to be most reliable.

 

[Armand2REP]

Type 45s are air defence ships, while Indian destroyers including the future Kolkata class destroyers are/will play a anti ship role, thus its difficult to compare those ships, except if we are talking about stealth or EW capabilities

Type 45 is like a stripped Horizon. It has no Exocets, torpedoes, good sonar or CIWS.

 

[Rahul M]

they are made for different roles. Type 45 is tailor made for AAW role but has no surface warfare capabilities (built for but not with). more limited ASW due to carrying one helo.

kolkata class is more of an all rounder, it is not as good as the T45 in AAW, although the radar IS very good by itself but it is much superior in surface warfare and better in ASW.

in other words, different navies, different needs, different ships.

 

[trackwhack]

The only advantage that the Type 45 has is that its GT's drive electrical generators that in turn charge/drive an electric propulsion system. An electric propulsion system means instantaneous peak torque so the ship may be awesome for extreme maneuvering. But its a friggin destroyer, not a corvette, so I don't see this weighing in too much. Other than that the electric propulsion system is supposedly more compact and easier to maintain. Compact may be right as the Kolkata is 10 meters (7%) longer while displacing the same tonnage.

But when it comes to sheer propulsion thrust the M36E's own the Rolls Royce GT's by pumping out an extra 10,000 SHP. Add to this an extra 18,000 SHP on the secondary propulsion system and you can see why the Kolkata class is gonna outrun the Type 45, day in and day out. Heck, the Type 45 wont outrun the Delhi class which is the nearly the same propulsion in Kolkata but a little older.

Finally when it comes to weapons systems you have Bramhos + Barak 8 + Barak 1 pitted against the Harpoon + Tomahawk + Sea Viper AD. An absolute no-contest.

But wait for Armand to come in and tell us how awesome the Sea Viper system is.

 

[Apollyon]

Type-45 have 48 Aster-15 + 48 Aster-30 compared to Kolkata Class with 32 Barak-1 + 64-80 Barak-8 and 16 Brahmos
Darling class is a Air-Defence destroyer while Kolkata is in a way a multirole

Arleigh Burke is altogether a different beast with 96 VLS, depending on mission requirements can carry a mix of SM-3 for ABM, SM-2 for Air-defence and Tomahawk for Land Attack and ASROC anti submarine rocket. Also carry 8 Harpoon AShM, 2 Phalanx CIWS anti-missile systems or ESSM in newer Flight III. :shocked:

:cool2:

Other than that the electric propulsion system is supposedly more compact and easier to maintain. Compact may be right as the Kolkata is 10 meters (7%) longer while displacing the same tonnage.

Tonnage of Darling Class (8000 ton) is around 20% more than that of Kolkata Class (6800 ton)

 

[trackwhack]

Type-45 have 48 Aster-15 + 48 Aster-30 compared to Kolkata Class with 32 Barak-1 + 64-80 Barak-8 and 16 Brahmos
Darling class is a Air-Defence destroyer while Kolkata is in a way a multirole

Arleigh Burke is altogether a different beast with 96 VLS, depending on mission requirements can carry a mix of SM-3 for ABM, SM-2 for Air-defence and Tomahawk for Land Attack and ASROC anti submarine rocket. Also carry 8 Harpoon AShM, 2 Phalanx CIWS anti-missile systems or ESSM in newer Flight III. :shocked:

:cool2:



Tonnage of Darling Class (8000 ton) is around 20% more than that of Kolkata Class (6800 ton)

Do you really believe these tonnage numbers. Both are going to be approximately the same.

If an 8000 tonne Type 45 powered by 54,000 SHP can reach 30 knots, then what speed do you think a 6800 tonne Kokata class powered by 64,000 SHP from its GT's and an additional 18,000 SHP from its diesel engines, can reach? 30 knots.

Sorry, even a 2 generation gap in shipbuilding expertise cannot fill those numbers. Either the Kolkata is heavier or the Type 45 is 7000 tonnes as is speculated.

 

[GromHellscream]

The only advantage that the Type 45 has is that its GT's drive electrical generators that in turn charge/drive an electric propulsion system. An electric propulsion system means instantaneous peak torque so the ship may be awesome for extreme maneuvering. But its a friggin destroyer, not a corvette, so I don't see this weighing in too much. Other than that the electric propulsion system is supposedly more compact and easier to maintain. Compact may be right as the Kolkata is 10 meters (7%) longer while displacing the same tonnage.

But when it comes to sheer propulsion thrust the M36E's own the Rolls Royce GT's by pumping out an extra 10,000 SHP. Add to this an extra 18,000 SHP on the secondary propulsion system and you can see why the Kolkata class is gonna outrun the Type 45, day in and day out. Heck, the Type 45 wont outrun the Delhi class which is the nearly the same propulsion in Kolkata but a little older.

Finally when it comes to weapons systems you have Bramhos + Barak 8 + Barak 1 pitted against the Harpoon + Tomahawk + Sea Viper AD. An absolute no-contest.

But wait for Armand to come in and tell us how awesome the Sea Viper system is.

Finally someone mentioned the propulsion system of Type 45 here, which imo is the biggest shinning point of this project. Electric propulsion system will be one of the standard devices for next generation surface fleet ships. British are truly genius in developping new concepts and technologies on navy, and i'm pretty sure PLAN will follow them in this aspect and manage to copy this idea in near future.

Do you really believe these tonnage numbers. Both are going to be approximately the same.

If an 8000 tonne Type 45 powered by 54,000 SHP can reach 30 knots, then what speed do you think a 6800 tonne Kokata class powered by 64,000 SHP from its GT's and an additional 18,000 SHP from its diesel engines, can reach? 30 knots.

Sorry, even a 2 generation gap in shipbuilding expertise cannot fill those numbers. Either the Kolkata is heavier or the Type 45 is 7000 tonnes as is speculated.

Tonnage numbers are not the only factor that matters here. Maybe Kolkatas are planed to be wider than Type 45 and thus suffer more resistance force than Type 45 when in the same speed.

 

[trackwhack]

Finally someone mentioned the propulsion system of Type 45 here, which imo is the biggest shinning point of this project. Electric propulsion system will be one of the standard devices for next generation surface fleet ships. British are truly genius in developping new concepts and technologies on navy, and i'm pretty sure PLAN will follow them in this aspect and manage to copy this idea in near future.



Tonnage numbers are not the only factor that matters here. Maybe Kolkatas are planed to be wider than Type 45 and thus suffer more resistance force than Type 45 when in the same speed.

Chief, irrespective of how much wider it is, you cant explain identical top speed when one machine weighs 20% lower than the other and has 50% more SHP than the other. It just does not make sense. There are many who say the Type 45 is a 6500 tonne ship. There are also many that say the Kolkata class is a 7500 tonne ship. Fact is a lot of these numbers are just pulled from initial design notes and no one really has a clue except the navies themselves.

The Kolkata itself was started off as the Bangalore class and then after several design iterations rechristened to Kolkata. The 6800 tonne figure is more than a decade old.

 

[LalTopi]

This unflaterring review is from last May, but does comment on how the Sea Viper may fair against say the Brahmos. Not sure whether there have been any tests of the system since, to prove otherwise.

HMS Daring, first of the £1.1bn+ Type 45 destroyers now coming into service with the Royal Navy, has finally fired her primary (and only significant) armament, the Sea Viper missile system.

The glad news comes five years after the ship was launched, three years after she was accepted into the Royal Navy and well into the tenure of her third commanding officer.


Woo! Armed at last!

Captain Guy Robinson, in a tinned quote supplied earlier this week by the Ministry of Defence, said: "This Sea Viper firing is a significant milestone for us and the final piece in the jigsaw as we prepare for our first deployment. I am very pleased."

It was hoped that Sea Viper would be ready for use by 2007, allowing it to be fitted to HMS Daring in a timely fashion so that she would be operational in 2008. Sadly the project suffered the traditional cost and time overruns, leading the MPs of the Public Accounts Committee to dub the weapon "disgraceful" in 2009, and as a result three captains and several generations of crew have served aboard an almost completely unarmed ship* for the last few years.

Sea Viper is the Royal Navy's name for the Principal Anti Air Missile System (PAAMS), a fusion of British, French, Italian and US-made equipment. It is touted as being superior to any other maritime air-defence system in the world, with the makers claiming that it can shoot down a cricket ball travelling at Mach 3 up to 75 miles away.

Stripping away the hype, Sea Viper has never been tested against a supersonic target and there are no plans to do so - meaning that it would be a brave decision indeed to rely on it against supersonic threats in combat. (The system's first four trials even against subsonics saw two failures.)

Sea Viper's French-made Aster missiles can probably reach out to 75 miles, but the inescapable curvature of the Earth means that the Sampson masthead fire control radar can't lock on to a low-flying target until it is within 20 miles or so. Various modern and indeed not-so-modern anti-shipping missiles (eg the "Klub", "Sunburn" and "Brahmos") are both low-flying and supersonic.

Then there are some serious gaps in the Sea Viper's (and thus the Type 45s') capabilities. The system cannot attack surface targets, meaning that the Royal Navy's new and cripplingly expensive destroyers will be almost powerless against properly-equipped warships or even quite minor gunboats and the like.

Sea Viper is also, realistically, never going to be capable of shooting down ballistic missile warheads soaring above the atmosphere as the Aegis/Standard system used by various US and allied-nation warships can (indeed Aegis/Standard can actually shoot down satellites in some circumstances).

Given that we could have had bigger, better, properly-armed Aegis/Standard ships - built in our own yards if we wanted - for roughly half the price we're paying for Type 45s, it's hard to see why Captain Robinson seems so pleased today. He could have been in command of a proper, arse-kicking warship: instead he's getting a poor second best.

There are also ongoing problems with HMS Daring's propulsion. The ship recently broke down in mid-Atlantic and had to limp in to harbour in Canada for repairs. ®

Bootnote

*Apart from Sea Viper, the only armament possessed by a Type 45 is a single 4.5-inch "Kryten" gun turret, primarily useful for bombarding targets ashore (within a few miles of deep water) and two light 30mm cannon for close-in work against pirate dhows or the like. This is weaponry of barely more than gunboat punch and of pre-WWII technology.

There were plans to fit the ships with "Phalanx" radar controlled close-in defence guns and perhaps with Tomahawk cruise missiles of the sort lately used so effectively against Libya, but these were cut for cost reasons (though some vessels may be fitted with borrowed Phalanxes temporarily at times).

In most situations the most useful capabilities of a Type 45 would reside in her embarked helicopter and possible party of Royal Marines.

£1.1bn Royal Navy warship finally armed, sort of "¢ The Register

 

[LalTopi]

Might be a dumb question, but why is this 8000ton beast only capable of air defence. I thought that the whole definition of a 'destroyer' is that it is multi-role and capable of operating independently in high threat situations. Whereas frigates and corvettes are lighter and hence more specialised. Is it just a question of they ran out of money to load the additional armaments?

Also, in what type of situations can this ship be useful? The only scenario I can think of is to repel Argie airplanes in the Falklands, or to beat-up Gaddafi type regimes. I'd hate to think that so much tax payer money has been spent and this ship would be of no use without support, against say Russian ships or subs.

Footnote

Saw the following wiki link which points to an answer for the above question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_class_frigate

On 26 April 1999 the UK announced that it was withdrawing from the CNGF project to pursue its own national design. The Financial Times summarised the main disagreements between the partner countries; the UK wanted a large destroyer which could patrol large areas such as the Atlantic, compared to France's desire for smaller aircraft carrier escorts and Italy's intention to use them in the Mediterranean; Secondly the UK wanted the ships with a wide-area defence capability

 

[Blackwater]

Royal navy destroyer looks more stealthy

 

[afako]

Tonnage numbers are not the only factor that matters here. Maybe Kolkatas are planed to be wider than Type 45 and thus suffer more resistance force than Type 45 when in the same speed.

Most of the Newer Western Designs have a Beam of 20m. While Indian and Chinese are stuck up to 17.5m. That allows for more stability of the ship and more space on either sides which greatly increases the Tonnage with addition of Weapons.

 

[HMS Astute]

Re: Comparing Indian Destroyers with Type 45 Destroyers of The Royal N

Type 45's radar can track over 1000 objects the size of a snooker ball, travelling more than 3x the speed of sound from 400km range. This dedicated AAW destroyer is capable of taking out any aircraft, missiles and objects (including stealth and ballistics) in the sky.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/...amines-Ballistic-Missile-Defense-Capabilities