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Refitted HMS Ark Royal for Indian Navy

  1. #16
    Rank 1 General SHASH2K2's Avatar
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    self delete .......................
    Last edited by SHASH2K2; 17-12-10 at 07:25 PM.
    क्षमा शोभती उस भुजंग को जिसके पास गरल हो
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  2. #17
    CHINI EXPERT Armand2REP's Avatar
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    The whole reason RN is decomming so much kit is because it is too old and expensive to maintain. India isn't some second hand market to pick up Anglo garbage. The only thing on my list worth picking up are the Nimrods as they are cutting edge brand spanking new. Getting Ark Royal is a waste as no fixed wing aircraft can operate from it. Buying more Harriers to augment the aged Viraat wing would make more sense but then the Navy already has MiG-29s to practice with until Gorshkov comes. Largs Bay is fairly new, but its carrying capacity is limited to one light LC. Mistral can do the job of 4 Largs Bay. Take the virtual tour...


    http://jdb.marine.defense.gouv.fr/SERVEUR/index.html

  3. #18
    Air Warrior Parthy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    If you subscribe to the magazines run by ex servicemen like 'Salute to the Indian Soldier' (Maroof Raza is the publisher) and 'Purple Beret' (Atul Bhardwaj is the Editor) there are extensive articles about the usefulness of an aircraft carrier, some of them being written by Adm Arun Prakash.

    As I see it, if you wish to target a port then an aircraft carrier would be an immense help than say a frigate or a destroyer.
    That's true Ray sir..

    @neilay - If we are saying an AC, its not a stand-alone attacker. We will have support fleet for the AC with an escort SUB... As Kunal bhai said it acts as a command center..

    Its all about the effectiveness.. A frigate and destroyer within the battle group will be able to project a greater threat to the enemy fleet provided the support from the fighters and helis from the AC..

    Not to forget that there's dilemma in IN higher ranks on whether to go for investing in AC or to go with more no of N-SUB fleets.
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  4. #19
    Air Warrior Parthy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armand2REP View Post
    The whole reason RN is decomming so much kit is because it is too old and expensive to maintain. India isn't some second hand market to pick up Anglo garbage. The only thing on my list worth picking up are the Nimrods as they are cutting edge brand spanking new. Getting Ark Royal is a waste as no fixed wing aircraft can operate from it. Buying more Harriers to augment the aged Viraat wing would make more sense but then the Navy already has MiG-29s to practice with until Gorshkov comes. Largs Bay is fairly new, but its carrying capacity is limited to one light LC. Mistral can do the job of 4 Largs Bay. Take the virtual tour...


    http://jdb.marine.defense.gouv.fr/SERVEUR/index.html
    HMS Ark Royal is better than Adm.Gorshkov on abilities... It is getting retired than planned only because of the defense budget cuts, not actually for the maintenance costs...
    our [B]INDIA [/B]will stand against all odds to be a great Nation :namaste:

    We are the[B][SIZE="3"] Key to World Peace[/SIZE][/B] :thumb:

    We are the Nation who [FONT="Georgia"][SIZE="4"][B]do not believe in using Force[/B][/SIZE][/FONT] in resolving disputes. :hail:

    [SIZE="4"]Proud to be an Indian[/SIZE] :india:

  5. #20
    Ray
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    The Chairman Ray's Avatar
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    Why bother about Ark Royal if HMS Queen Elizabeth is up for the grabs.


    ***************************

    HMS Queen Elizabeth

    The new UK CVF Royal Navy aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, are expected to enter service in 2016 and 2018.

    CVF will displace 65,000t, a size between the USA's 100,000t Nimitz Class and the French 43,000t Charles de Gaulle Class aircraft carriers, and three times larger than the 20,000t UK Invincible class carriers.

    The carrier will have a maximum speed of 25kt. At 15kt the range is 10,000nm and the ship carries food, fuel and stores for an endurance of seven days between replenishments. Each ship will have a complement of typically 1,200, including 600 aircrew.

    The CVF Integrated Project Team is managing the procurement programme on behalf of the Ministry of Defence Procurement Executive.

    On 7 July 2009, construction of the carriers began, with the first steel being cut in Govan at the BVT shipyard.....

    The Maritime Group at QinetiQ have developed a suite of advanced modelling and simulation programmes that are being used by the QinetiQ and DPA teams with BAE Systems and the major contractors to characterise the hull, flight deck, hangar deck, internal carrier design and other features.

    The hull designs are being planned for a 50-year service life and are currently being configured with a ski ramp for short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) operations. The carrier's service life is substantially longer than the 20-year service life of the selected F-35 STOVL carrier aircraft. The DPA has decided the carriers will be upgradeable to a conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) design, so the option will be available to operate conventional maritime aircraft. The hull will be nine-decks deep plus the flight deck. Corus will supply the over 80,000t of steel plating required for the two ships at an estimated value of £65m.

    A number of protective measures such as side armour and armoured bulkheads proposed by industrial bid teams have been deleted from the design in order to comply with cost limitations.


    Joint combat aircraft operations

    The carrier will support joint combat aircraft carrying out up to 420 sorties over five days and be able to conduct day and night time operations. The maximum sortie rate is 110 joint combat aircraft sorties in a 24-hour period.

    The standard airgroup of 40 aircraft includes the Lockheed Martin F-35B joint strike fighter, the EH101 Merlin helicopter and the maritime surveillance and control aircraft (MASC).

    The maximum launch rate is 24 aircraft in 15 minutes and the maximum recovery rate is 24 aircraft in 24 minutes.

    The MASC assessment phase for an airborne early warning aircraft to succeed the Sea King ASaC mk7 helicopter was launched in September 2005. In May 2006, three study contracts were awarded for MASC platform and mission systems options. The contracts were awarded to: Lockheed Martin UK to study the potential of using the Merlin with AEW mission systems, AgustaWestland to study maintaining the Sea King ASaC mk7 to 2017 and Thales UK to study upgrading the Sea King's mission systems.

    In July 2006, two further study contracts for the enhanced manned rotary-wing solution were awarded to EADS Defence & Security Systems UK and Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems. Funding for the MASC programme has been deferred and it appears likely that the Sea King ASaC mk7, with capability upgrades, will be retained until the helicopter’s out-of-service date of 2022.

    The aircraft carriers hanger deck, 155m x 33.5m x 6.7m to 10m high, accommodates up to 20 fixed and rotary wing aircraft.

    Under contracts placed in September 2008, Babcock will supply the highly mechanised weapons handling system (HMWHS) and BAE Systems Insyte the air traffic control system for the two vessels.

    Islands

    Instead of a traditional single island, a current ship design has two smaller islands. The forward island is for ship control functions and the aft (FLYCO) island is for flying control.

    Advantages of the two island configuration are increased flight deck area, reduced air turbulence over the flight deck and increased flexibility of space allocation in the lower decks. The flight control centre in the aft island is in the optimum position for control of the critical aircraft approach and deck landings.

    Depending on budget availability, the radar fit will include a BAE Systems Insyte Sampson multi-function radar on the forward island and an Insyte S1850M air surveillance radar on the aft FLYCO island.

    The S1850M air surveillance radar, operating at 1GHz to 2GHz, is an electronically stabilised multibeam radar, operating up to an elevation of 0° to 70° and providing automatic target detection and tracking to a range of 400km.

    The Sampson multifunction radar includes two phased array antennae planes which are rotated and which scan electronically in azimuth and in elevation to provide 360° coverage.

    The four-sided pyramidal masthead with a spherical low-loss glass-fibre-reinforced plastic radome gives the Sampson radar its distinctive appearance.

    Aircraft carrier deck

    The deck will support simultaneous launch and recovery operations. The deck is fitted with a 13° bow deck ski jump.

    No catapult or arresters will be fitted in the initial build but the carrier will be built to accommodate a future back-fit. The carrier will be fitted with a steam catapult or electromagnetic launch system and arrester gear, if the option to convert the carrier to the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant proceeds.

    The deck has three runways: two shorter runways of approximately 160m for the STOVL joint strike fighter and a long runway, approximately 260m over the full length of the carrier, for launching heavily loaded aircraft – an area of nearly 13,000m². The deck will have one or two vertical landing pads for the F-35 aircraft towards the stern of the ship.

    Jet blast deflectors will be fitted on each runway 160m back from the bow ski jump and probably in line with the rear wall of the first island. The deflectors protect the deck from the blast of the F-35 joint strike fighter aircraft engines operating at maximum thrust for take-off.

    There will be two large 70t-load deck-edge aircraft lifts, to be built by McTaggart Scott of Loanhead, Scotland, to transfer aircraft between the hangar and flight decks, one between the islands and one to the aft of the FLYCO island.

    QinetiQ and the US Navy carried out a study on an electromagnetic catapult launcher. Early studies indicated that a 300ft-long, 90MW linear motor would be needed for the CVF aircraft carriers, but both MOD and UK industry would wish to see the results of demonstrations and trials of electromagnetic launcher technology before considering the selection of a launch system.

    An electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) is to be developed by General Atomics in USA for the USN CVN-21 aircraft carrier. The maturity of EMALS technology for integration into UK CVF aircraft carriers will be assessed as the US CVN-21 programme progresses.

    Systems

    The carrier might be built for but not with the installation of a close in weapons system. Another systems which could be fitted if budget were made available would be two 16-cell vertical launchers for the Aster missiles.

    Selex Communications was awarded the production contract for the vessels' identification friend or foe (IFF) systems in October 2007.

    The Queen Elizabeth Class will be fitted with the Royal Navy's new-generation maritime medium-range radar (MRR) to replace the type 996 surveillance and target indication radar. In August 2008, BAE Systems Insyte (with Qinetiq) ARTISAN 3D E/F-band radar was selected for the MRR.
    Aircraft carrier propulsion

    The MoD has decided not to use nuclear propulsion because of its high cost, and has chosen an podded propulsion system based on Rolls-Royce's integrated electric propulsion (IEP) system. The contract for the propulsion system was placed in October 2008.

    The propulsion system will consist of two Rolls-Royce Marine 36MW MT30 gas turbine alternators, providing over 70MW and four diesel engines providing approximately 40MW, with the total installed power approaching 110MW.

    The gas turbines and diesels are the largest supplied to the Royal Navy, their combined power feeds the low-voltage system and supplies two tandem electric propulsion motors that drive a conventional twin shaft arrangement, fitted with fixed-pitch propellers.

    In December 2007, the UK MoD placed a contract with Wärtsilä Defence for two 12-cylinder and two 16-cylinder Wärtsilä 38 diesel engines for the IEP of each ship.

    L-3 Communications is supplying the integrated platform management system and Converteam the high voltage system and propulsion converters / motors.

    CVF will have two bronze propellers, each 6.7m in diameter and weighing 33t. The anchors will be 3.1m in height and weigh 13t.

    CVF will carry over 8,600t of fuel to support both the vessel and aircraft.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth

  6. #21
    Regular Member Yatharth Singh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parthy View Post
    ok that makes some justification.. what about having the amphibious assault ship??
    Man you know what, Admiral Gorshkov was in service with Soviet Union as an AAS only. I have no objection in acquiring any assault vessel but instead it should make some sense. My questions were only against the idea of induction for more AC`s AS BY 2020 we will be having 5 AC and you know what, its never ever easy to manage a AC and also each AC requires a protection group of other frigates,destroyers and cruisers.
    Yes currently India must have a substantial number of amphibious assault ship to maintain its supremacy over the vast Indian Ocean and that too after when IN is made responsible for the entire offshore operations which will surely stress the need for more AAS and MARCOS marine commandos.
    IN WAR, THERE IS NO PRIZE FOR THE RUNNER UP.

  7. #22
    Regular Member Yatharth Singh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yatharth Singh View Post
    India plans to have 3 ACs . AC1 beeing built at kochi shipyard (40,000T ) , INS VIKRAMADITYA, AC2 will be built after AC1 at kochi shipyard (60,000 -65,000T)
    I know that better dude. And by 2020 just count the total number of AC`s under service with IN. INS Viraat, INS Vikramaditya,INS Vikrant, INS Vishal and after the completion of two indigenous AC`s, Kochin shipyard will construct 2 more nuclear powered AC. Now understood why I was not in favor of purchasing 2nd hand carriers.
    IN WAR, THERE IS NO PRIZE FOR THE RUNNER UP.

  8. #23
    Full Member vinay535's Avatar
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    Indias lone serving AC INS VIRAAT was supposed to be decommisioned along time ago but Indian navy didnt wanted to be seen without an AC. There were major refits carried out on it so that it could be used till INS VIKRAMADITYA joined INDIAN NAVY. After that it will be tata byebye for VIRAAT.
    i havent heard of 2 nuclear powered ACs . maybe someone can shed more light on it

  9. #24
    Regular Member gogbot's Avatar
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    Why do people want to buy more carriers from outside.

    We should focus those resources on our on IAC projects.
    IN is doing a good job indigenising its fleet. Don't go backwards.

    We have no pressing need for more aircraft carriers.
    2 are on the way , with one in the works.

    What we need are LPD's and Submarines which can be procured offshore to meet our urgent requirements.

  10. #25
    Regular Member gogbot's Avatar
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    Double post .......... ..........

  11. #26
    CHINI EXPERT Armand2REP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parthy View Post
    HMS Ark Royal is better than Adm.Gorshkov on abilities... It is getting retired than planned only because of the defense budget cuts, not actually for the maintenance costs...
    Ark Royal was designed as an ASW helo carrier. Adding the ski jump was an afterthought. It cannot carry conventional aircraft. Comparing what a GR9 can do to a MiG-29K is like comparing Jack to the Bean Stock Giant. They aren't even in the same class carrier wise. It is getting retired because it has to undergo refit twice as often as a new ship, which translates to twice the maintenance costs. If it wasn't so expensive they wouldn't have made the politically tough decision to get rid of their carrier capabilities for the next ten years.

  12. #27
    Regular Member Yatharth Singh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinay535 View Post
    Indias lone serving AC INS VIRAAT was supposed to be decommisioned along time ago but Indian navy didnt wanted to be seen without an AC. There were major refits carried out on it so that it could be used till INS VIKRAMADITYA joined INDIAN NAVY. After that it will be tata byebye for VIRAAT.
    i havent heard of 2 nuclear powered ACs . maybe someone can shed more light on it
    Mark my words that INS Viraat would`n`t leave the service until 2017-19. Viraat was expected to be replaced by 2011–2012 by a new Vikrant class carrier that the Vikramaditya now represents. Since the Viraat has had its engine and hull refurbished and its electronics upgraded, it can serve until 2019. That would mean sixty years in service for the carrier.
    About the nuclear powered AC, I have just read it somewhere I remember but could`n`t memorize where.
    Will post details as soon as I get my eyes on it.
    IN WAR, THERE IS NO PRIZE FOR THE RUNNER UP.

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