Project-75I class SSK Submarines

Zebra

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he BIG QUESTION that arises is: With so much evidence of indigenous design and manufacturing skills on the Arihant, why is the Indian Navy still hankering for foreign submersibles and not trusting Indian capabilities to produce the Project 75i conventional submarine???
Experts your opinion please regarding the last para that I have put in Bold
Certainly I am not an expert.

In my layman's terms.....all those who ever said no to Indian developed stuff, they are all congress and center to left stooges.

Should get hanged. ASAP. Please.

Sorry, but no sorry.

Now, back on topic... we are talking about a nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines.

It dived below 340-350 m.

That is not impressive at all.

Even a diesel electric sub can go below that.
 

Bheeshma

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No they cannot. And 340-350m is usually not bad but is purely the guess work from author.Though titanium alloy was used is interesting.
 

Zebra

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1) Battle of the Submarines: Akula versus Virginia - Naval Technology

It says...
Russia's Akula-class submarines trump the Virginia-class submarines on both operating depth and speed, being capable of diving deeper and travelling faster whilst submerged. Akula-class submarines have a maximum operating depth of 600 metres, whereas the listed operational depth of a Virginia-class submarine is noted as greater than 250 metres.
2) Sōryū-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

General characteristics

Type: Submarine
Displacement: Surfaced: 2,900 tonnes (2,854 long tons)
Submerged: 4,200 t (4,134 long tons)
Length: 84.0 m (275 ft 7 in)
Beam: 9.1 m (29 ft 10 in)
Draught: 8.5 m (27 ft 11 in)
Depth: 500m
Propulsion: 1-shaft 2× Kawasaki 12V 25/25 SB-type diesel engines diesel-electric
4× Kawasaki Kockums V4-275R Stirling engines
3,900 hp (2,900 kW) surfaced
8,000 hp (6,000 kW) submerged
Speed: Surfaced: 13 kn (24 km/h; 15 mph)
Submerged: 20 kn (37 km/h; 23 mph)
Range: AIP endurance (est.): 6100 nautical miles (11297.2 km; 7060.75 miles) at 6.5 knots (12 km/h; 7.48 mp/h)[2]
Complement: 65 (9 officers, 56 enlisted)
Sensors and
processing systems: ZPS-6F surface/low-level air search radar
Hughes/Oki ZQQ-7 Sonar suite: 1× bow-array, 4× LF flank arrays and 1× Towed array sonar
Electronic warfare
& decoys: ZLR-3-6 ESM equipment
2× 3-inch underwater countermeasure launcher tubes for launching of Acoustic Device Countermeasures (ADCs)
Armament: 6×HU-606 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes with 30 reloads for:
1.) Type 89 torpedoes
2.) UGM-84 Harpoon
Mines


*********
All the sub people are like woman. They don't like, others to know, how much deep they can go.

And the actual depth remain classified.
 

Punya Pratap

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Certainly I am not an expert.

In my layman's terms.....all those who ever said no to Indian developed stuff, they are all congress and center to left stooges.

Should get hanged. ASAP. Please.

Sorry, but no sorry.

Now, back on topic... we are talking about a nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines.

It dived below 340-350 m.

That is not impressive at all.

Even a diesel electric sub can go below that.
Dear Casper, I understand your point and trust me I am all for Made In India stuff as well!!

As for the depth the dive was beyond 350 m and the same can be uptil 500 m..... they are testing everything systematically one step at a time.....

Its like the flight envelop restrictions for fighters' IOC & FOC.... dont worry Arihant will be put to test beyond 500 m

I think the biggest parameter for any nuclear powered sub is :

a) The safety and efficiency of the reactor

b) The safety parameters of the hull & all the equipments because any accident on a nuke sub will be a disaster

That is why I think Navy had to revamp its SOP's post Sindhurakshak episode coz if it had been an Arihant class sub accident than you can imagine....half of Mumbai would have been blown up!!

@ Pulkit you are right about the immediate requirement for replacement subs to fill up the numbers but in the longer run IN has to look at home grown subs.

With IN's track record I m pretty sure they themselves would design Made in India Subs soon.....after all they are the only armed forces branch that believes in doing things themselves and getting involved right from the designing stage till the manufacturing stage!!

I WISH IAF & IA LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM COZ MAKING YOUR OWN NUKE SUB IS EQUALENT TO MAKING A 5TH GEN FIGHTER OR 4TH GEN MBT's
 

Zebra

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Dear Casper, I understand your point and trust me I am all for Made In India stuff as well!!

As for the depth the dive was beyond 350 m and the same can be uptil 500 m..... they are testing everything systematically one step at a time.....

Its like the flight envelop restrictions for fighters' IOC & FOC.... dont worry Arihant will be put to test beyond 500 m

I think the biggest parameter for any nuclear powered sub is :

a) The safety and efficiency of the reactor

b) The safety parameters of the hull & all the equipments because any accident on a nuke sub will be a disaster

That is why I think Navy had to revamp its SOP's post Sindhurakshak episode coz if it had been an Arihant class sub accident than you can imagine....half of Mumbai would have been blown up!!

@ Pulkit you are right about the immediate requirement for replacement subs to fill up the numbers but in the longer run IN has to look at home grown subs.

With IN's track record I m pretty sure they themselves would design Made in India Subs soon.....after all they are the only armed forces branch that believes in doing things themselves and getting involved right from the designing stage till the manufacturing stage!!

I WISH IAF & IA LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM COZ MAKING YOUR OWN NUKE SUB IS EQUALENT TO MAKING A 5TH GEN FIGHTER OR 4TH GEN MBT's

The BIG QUESTION that arises is: With so much evidence of indigenous design and manufacturing skills on the Arihant, why is the Indian Navy still hankering for foreign submersibles and not trusting Indian capabilities to produce the Project 75i conventional submarine???
Not a bad idea though, for a diesel electric sub with this kind of hull.

At the end of the day still it is developed and made in India.
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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Six new submarines to be built in India in Rs 50,000 crore project

NEW DELHI: Frustrated with seven years of debilitating delay in even kicking off the process to select a foreign collaborator to help make new-generation stealth submarines, the Navy has junked its long-standing demand for getting two of the six such vessels directly from aboard.

Defence ministry sources said Navy has now agreed that all the six new submarines, armed with both land-attack missile capabilities and air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance, will be constructed in India with foreign collaboration under 'Project-75-India'.

The major decision dovetails into the Modi government's thrust on building a strong indigenous defence-industrial base with stepped-up private sector participation. The Arun Jaitley-led defence acquisitions council last month, for instance, scrapped the long-pending import of 197 light utility helicopters, holding they would be made here under the 'Buy and Make Indian' category to encourage the domestic private industry.

The approved P-75I plan till now was that the first two submarines would be imported to save time, given the country's rapidly-ageing and depleting underwater combat arm, with the next three being constructed at Mazagon Docks (Mumbai) and one at Hindustan Shipyard (Visakhapatnam) with technology transfer from the foreign company eventually selected.

But this will change now. With the Rs 23,562 crore construction of six French Scorpene submarines under Project-75 running four years behind schedule at MDL, the defence establishment could well turn to a private shipyard for execution of P-75I.


Moreover, the long delay in launching P-75I, which was granted "acceptance of necessity" way back in November 2007, will lead to some cost escalation from the initial estimate of around Rs 50,000 crore.

The import of the first two submarines and the selection of the Indian shipyard to make the other four has for long been the bone of contention, with the file still being tossed between the finance and defence ministries. This despite India being down to just 13 ageing diesel-electric submarines, with only half of them operational at present.

Once the global tender or RFP (request for proposal) for P-75I is issued, it will take at least three years to first select the foreign collaborator and then finalize the project with it. It will thereafter take another seven to eight years for the first submarine to roll out.

The Krishnamurthy panel, one of the three committees which examined the matter, had held that MDL among the defence shipyards had the "capability" to take on P-75I, while L&T was the only private one to have the "potential" for it. But that was some years ago. The RFP, when it is issued, will go to entities like DCNS (France), HDW (Germany), Navantia (Spain) and Rosoboronexport (Russia), among others, who will have to tie up with an Indian shipyard for the project.

The Navy, meanwhile, is keeping its fingers crossed that there are no more delays in the Scorpene project, under which the first submarine will now be inducted in September 2016, with the other five following at 9-10 months intervals each.

Last month, the defence ministry also approved the Rs 4,800 crore mid-life upgrade and life-extension of four Kilo or Sindhughosh-class (Russian) submarines and two HDW or Shishumar-class (German) ones. While two of the Kilo-class submarines will be upgraded in Russia, the other two will follow suit at Mumbai naval dockyard. The two HDW submarines, in turn, will be upgraded at MDL with the German company's help.

Six new submarines to be built in India in Rs 50,000 crore project - The Times of India
 

Zebra

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Warship Costs | New Wars

Dolphin SSK (German/Israeli)-$635 million

Gotland SSK (Sweden)-$365 million

Improved Kilo SSK (Russia)-$350 million

Scorpene SSK (Spain)-$825 million

Type 209 SSK (German/Portugal)-$550 million

Type 212 SSK (Germany)-$525 million

Type 214 SSK (Germany)-$500 million
 

Iceman2012

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Why not buy the improved Gotland class for the time being to have cheaper access to increased number of subs while at the same time work with Saab on the new generation of subs/increase the number of SSBNs. While everyone would like everything, cost is also an important factor. Plus, for the Bay of Bengal/indian ocean, got lands and scorpenes are enough. We need the SSBNs for what they do best - strategic deterrence
 

bengalraider

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With all the bonhomie between Namo and Abe i wouldn't be surprised if we also got a chance to buy Soryu's from Japan, the Aussies seem to have closed in on the soryu as the next submarine for the Australian navy and we also seem to have discussed a possible purchase with the Japanese.
Japan Enters Global Submarine Market With Soryu Offering | The Diplomat
Month of Plain Talking - The New Indian Express
SS Soryu Class Submarines - Naval Technology

For instance, Modi's reference in Tokyo to the 18th century-style imperialistic tendencies of China to grab land and sea territories, and Tokyo's agreeing to sell 15 US-2 amphibious aircraft along with transfer of technology (ToT) that will result in a US-2i version tailored for Indian needs to be designed with Indian military's inputs, and the talk of the Soryu-class conventional hunter-killer submarine in the Indian fleet, have made an Indo-Japanese pincer real. Beijing has reacted with reports suggesting that Xi Jinping is preparing to match Abe's ante and to up it with even more attractive investment and other deals. To maximise geostrategic gains, Modi should maintain pressure by announcing the sale/transfer of Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles to Vietnam and other Southeast Asian states in the run-up to Xi Jinping's visit.
 
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Dhairya Yadav

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With all the bonhomie between Namo and Abe i wouldn't be surprised if we also got a chance to buy Soryu's from Japan, the Aussies seem to have closed in on the soryu as the next submarine for the Australian navy and we also seem to have discussed a possible purchase with the Japanese.
Japan Enters Global Submarine Market With Soryu Offering | The Diplomat
Month of Plain Talking - The New Indian Express
SS Soryu Class Submarines - Naval Technology
I dont think India will induct Soryu, but nothing wrong with maintaining the benefit of doubt when China is considered :boink:
 

bengalraider

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The problem with the Soryu's lies in the fact that much of the advanced equipment used comes with end user clauses mandated by the U.S, however that being said if we buy the hull design and replace the sensor equipment in question with domestic or other available tech i do not see why we cannot buy them.another question is price with some media quoting prices of upto 1.87bil$ per sub, though i feel this is lifecycle costs including the running expenses. Other media reports have indicated far lower prices of around 500-600mil$/soryu.
Australia Nears Deal to Buy Up to 10 Japanese Submarines - WSJ
Soryu Class Diesel-Powered Attack Submarine | Military-Today.com
 
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Zebra

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The problem with the Soryu's lies in the fact that much of the advanced equipment used comes with end user clauses mandated by the U.S, however that being said if we buy the hull design and replace the sensor equipment in question with domestic or other available tech i do not see why we cannot buy them.another question is price with some media quoting prices of upto 1.87bil$ per sub, though i feel this is lifecycle costs including the running expenses. Other media reports have indicated far lower prices of around 500-600mil$/soryu.
Australia Nears Deal to Buy Up to 10 Japanese Submarines - WSJ
Soryu Class Diesel-Powered Attack Submarine | Military-Today.com
It should be 12 subs.
 

Zebra

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There will be a political WW2 in Australia.

The Germans offered $20 billion only, but they didn't mention which sub they are offering.

On top of it German TKMS and Swedish SAAB, both were happy to make them in Australia also, with the help of a join venture with ASC.
 

Kranthi

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Military and technical cooperation between India and Japan could be promising - News - Society - Russian Radio

India might show interest in Japan's naval developments. All classes of ships, including aircraft carriers could be built at Japanese shipyards. Most likely, Japan will participate in the forthcoming Indian tender for non-atomic submarines of the Project 711. At present, the Soryu Class diesel-electric submarine is the world's best. It is equipped with advanced electronic systems capable of covering the undersea and over sea situation. These submarines are adapted to carry out military missions in shallow water areas, as well as in deep oceans. This is very important for India as these submarines could be equipped with BrahMos missiles.
 

bengalraider

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The key factor here is we shall also be getting a proven AIP system(Stirling cycle) with these babies that have made the Soryu class one of the leaders in continuous underwater operations.the endurance of up to 14 days underwater without surfacing is only matched by the Swedish Gotland class i believe. The Stirling cycle based AIP has been the longest serving AIP system in sub history with Swedish vessels using the system since the late 80's. this is widely recognized to be the safest AIP system as well.
 

Zebra

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The best part of Soryu class is they got developed in Asia by an Asian country for their own use.

It will be much much easy for Soryu class subs to adopt Indian waters.
 

bengalraider

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i second that Casper, also notice that the distance from Mumbai port to Gwadar Harbour is no more than 800nm while sailing along the coast (much lesser in transit through deep seas),with the phenomenal AIp endurance of 6100nm that a soryu has, theoretically a wolf-pack of Soryu's could sail from Mumbai submerging soon after leaving Harbour , get to within 100nm of Gwadar launch a full set of Brahmos SLCMs and come back to Mumbai without even surfacing once i.e Karachi Redux and in style.
 

Punya Pratap

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My vote for Soryu... I m sure Japan's already figured out what it takes to take on China!!
 

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