Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[p2prada]

if you take a look at Ray Sir's post he does not about these at all.

Nobody in the world has still answered how much it is going to cost to induct and operate the Arjun compared to T-90.

infact he says 1000 Arjun tanks mark 1 and 2 can be inducted.

And he also gives the T-90 number as 500 instead of 1600. 1000 Arjuns can be inducted if T-90s are limited and placed on the backburner.

and so have many army people like gen. shankar roy chowdhary, gen. thamburaj and Ajai shukla who support Arjun. all are people who served the army.

And the very people who serve in the army and are right on top of the (decision)chain chose the T-90 over the Arjun. They obviously know something we don't.

as for T-90 being cheaper, well - not really.

Bring all the cool stuff in the T-90 and the Arjun costs will balloon. And I am not talking about unit costs. I am talking about lifecycle costs. If an Arjun costs 15 Crores and a T-90 costs 15 Crores, these costs will be peanuts compared to the actual lifecycles costs. Maybe 2 or 3 times more. And the T-90 is cheaper in that respect.

i, like the rest of the members who have debated with you, don't see the issue of logistics the same way as you do.

Like OOE said, amateurs talk big guns and speed while professionals talk logistics. Moving your military at the right time to the right place is what determines the winner.

You must understand that modern warfare is completely different from WW2. It is all about forcing the enemy in a small area so they can be bombed from the air. All that Blitzkreig era in gone.

well you call it overrule or force. GOI/MOD will have final say irrespective of army wanting or not wanting. i only wish MOD shows some gut.

Why does MoD need guts if they can overrule anything the services do? The MoD and the GoI specifically stated the Airforce can choose whichever plane they want in the MRCA and they will not interfere.

Arjun outruns, outscores and protects the crew far better vis-a-vis T-90. i feel it boosts the capability. so, infrastructure should be secondary.

That is not a boost in capability.It just adds to existing capability. Case in point in the MRCA, we are getting a whole new radar system with an entirely different avionics package which will completely radicalize fighting in the subcontinent. The Arjun gives a supposedly slightly better armour and crew protection with systems that are more or less the same as T-90. It is not a boost.

easy without crucial systems. worst of all is this -


http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

now they are spending a whole lot of time upgrading them incrementally adding to cost.

So, another conspiracy coming from Ajai Shukla. Supposedly a tank that has been tested since 30 years is suddenly not battleworthy. He is just playing you. He is talking about the failed Catherines and nothing else. They were fixed years ago.

it is no more cheaper than Arjun. may be equal or more.

You are talking unit costs while I am talking lifecycle and logistics costs.

point does not arise because that was never on the plate.

Exactly and the reason is as simple as logistics and doctrine. Heck who wouldn't want the Abrams if it was affordable.

i have never spoken about kickbacks. as for conspiracy (as in sabotage), i have given proper links.

That sabotage accusation is also not proven. It was just claimed by DRDO. Fixing a black box does not prove there was sabotage. Winter trials are always difficult and failure cannot be tolerated. There were engine troubles reported during the trials and according to Ray sir they have been fixed.

 

[Armand2REP]

Bottom line is IA needs Arjun. If they have a problem with transportation then they should be forward deployed as the Cold Start doctrine states. The question isn't how well it moves around India but how well it can get around in Pakistan. As the lead element of the strike Corps it will smash through the T-80s and Al Khalids like a hot knife through butter. The T-90 will only have a marginal advantage over such tanks and should be used for the defence of India where it can be easily transported by rail and follow up the victories on the front. What I would do is cancel the T-72 modernisation and start phasing them out with T-90s. Instead of T-90 being the lead element it would be replaced with the Arjun. DRDO needs a victory for indiginisation for itself and the country. Ordering 1,000 Arjun and keeping the T-90 will be more than enough tank to defeat both Pakistan and China. Arjun might be expensive, but the T-90 isn't cheap. They already cost $3 million and are only increasing with time. With the better firepower and survivability of topline tanks IA can get away with less numbers and more quality that the T-72 lacks.

 

[ppgj]

Nobody in the world has still answered how much it is going to cost to induct and operate the Arjun compared to T-90.

agree but how do you know the cost of T-90 is less? you have any info analysis that others can see too and can you post it please.

And he also gives the T-90 number as 500 instead of 1600. 1000 Arjuns can be inducted if T-90s are limited and placed on the backburner.

he said this -

In the end, after 7-8 years Indian Armored Corps should have more than 1000 Arjun Mk1 and Mk2 (preferably, 70% indigenous), 500 T-90S, and more than 2000 T-72 upgraded to the T-90 and Arjun standards. The Arjun MBT program and T-90 serial production will have numerous offshoots for the T-72 up gradation.

do you disagree with him?

And the very people who serve in the army and are right on top of the (decision)chain chose the T-90 over the Arjun. They obviously know something we don't.

gen. shankar roy chowdhary was a COAS and a tankman. you think he can't think through.

Bring all the cool stuff in the T-90 and the Arjun costs will balloon. And I am not talking about unit costs. I am talking about lifecycle costs. If an Arjun costs 15 Crores and a T-90 costs 15 Crores, these costs will be peanuts compared to the actual lifecycles costs. Maybe 2 or 3 times more. And the T-90 is cheaper in that respect.

which begs again my first point right on top.

also the cost of induction and life cycle cost drops as the numbers increase. if the army inducts Arjun in numbers, it is bound to come down.

Like OOE said, amateurs talk big guns and speed while professionals talk logistics.

hope OOE sir joins the debate and throws his light on this.

Moving your military at the right time to the right place is what determines the winner

You must understand that modern warfare is completely different from WW2. It is all about forcing the enemy in a small area so they can be bombed from the air. All that Blitzkreig era in gone.

how does relate to T-90 or Arjun?? it is a matter of tactics and situational awareness. both tanks can do that. finally which is superior will do a better job of finishing off.

Why does MoD need guts if they can overrule anything the services do?

i say that because they have not done that yet.

The MoD and the GoI specifically stated the Airforce can choose whichever plane they want in the MRCA and they will not interfere.

ofc they can choose 2/3 which meets their requirement as proposed by them in the RFP. but GOI/MOD will decide the final aircraft keeping a larger strategy in mind.

That is not a boost in capability.It just adds to existing capability. Case in point in the MRCA, we are getting a whole new radar system with an entirely different avionics package which will completely radicalize fighting in the subcontinent. The Arjun gives a supposedly slightly better armour and crew protection with systems that are more or less the same as T-90. It is not a boost.

how come greater accuracy, better crew protection, better mobility, better crew comfort, better armour, BMS is not a boost?? down the line defensive aids and net centricity will only add to it. and as the numbers increase the indigenous content will also grow, a link for which i have posted in the past. it adds to our independance in defence technology.

So, another conspiracy coming from Ajai Shukla. Supposedly a tank that has been tested since 30 years is suddenly not battleworthy. He is just playing you. He is talking about the failed Catherines and nothing else. They were fixed years ago.

it is a fact. even now many systems are still not in place. i agree with ajai. maybe it was also the main reason why operation parakram was called off. T-90 has 1000hp engine while pakistan's T-80 has 1200 hp engine. being a basic T-90 with not even a good armour, they would have been sitting ducks.

strange thing about army is they want all systems in Arjun from the word go but that does not matter when it comes to T-90.

can you elaborate what systems were in place in T-90 in 2000/2001??

also to be noted is Ajai Shukla has not been refuted by GOI or the army. if that was not so, the army would have been on him immediately.

You are talking unit costs while I am talking lifecycle and logistics costs.

dealt above.

Exactly and the reason is as simple as logistics and doctrine. Heck who wouldn't want the Abrams if it was affordable.

you keep bringing Abrams into the picture for no reason. as for as india and it's army is concerned, the debate is Arjun and T-90.

That sabotage accusation is also not proven. It was just claimed by DRDO. Fixing a black box does not prove there was sabotage.

it was claimed not only by DRDO but also by RENK, the german manufacturers of the engine. this was alluded to by the minister too, the link of which i have posted in the past.

Winter trials are always difficult and failure cannot be tolerated. There were engine troubles reported during the trials and according to Ray sir they have been fixed.

post winter trials, army chief wrote to MOD appreciating Arjun!!

it is only natural in any trials there would be issues with any tank. point is are they insurmountable or can be fixed in short time.

army has consistently misled and exaggerated Arjun's problems - http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=320574

There is an anecdote. While Arjun Tank was on trial, the engine compressor broke down. The engine was replaced in less than 30 minutes and the tank was up and running. The engine can be repaired and put on to the next tank. Where as if the same thing happens to the T-90, its grounded till the repairs are effected. It may take in excess of 3 hours. So, finally when the report reached the Army HQ, it stated:

Arjun Tank: engine broken. Complete replacement
T-90: engine broken, repaired.

http://frontierindia.net/passion-of-the-arjun-tank

while hiding T-90's problems.

T-90S torsion bar problems were in spotlight again during the “Exercise Ashwamedha” conducted by Indian Army in May 2007.

Ironically the Indian media had reported that Arjun Tank had torsion bar broken which proved to be wrong as Arjun Tank has Hydro pneumatic suspension which had no problems.

The press had also reported leakage in the hydro pneumatic suspension system of Arjun Tank which proved to be baseless.

Another point on cause for concern on the Arjun Tanks’ German MTU 838 Ka-501 engine was also proved wrong. The newspapers failed to give any overheating reports or breakdown reports.

The price negotiation committee had forced Indian Army to evaluate the T-90S in Indian conditions. Subsequently T-90S was found insuitable for desert conditions, but Indian Army still went ahead and recommended the purchase of T-90S.

http://frontierindia.net/t-90s-torsion-bar-problems-persist

 

[ppgj]

an old picture of arjun being transported -

 

[bengalraider]

Bottom line is IA needs Arjun. If they have a problem with transportation then they should be forward deployed as the Cold Start doctrine states. The question isn't how well it moves around India but how well it can get around in Pakistan. As the lead element of the strike Corps it will smash through the T-80s and Al Khalids like a hot knife through butter. The T-90 will only have a marginal advantage over such tanks and should be used for the defence of India where it can be easily transported by rail and follow up the victories on the front. What I would do is cancel the T-72 modernisation and start phasing them out with T-90s. Instead of T-90 being the lead element it would be replaced with the Arjun. DRDO needs a victory for indiginisation for itself and the country. Ordering 1,000 Arjun and keeping the T-90 will be more than enough tank to defeat both Pakistan and China. Arjun might be expensive, but the T-90 isn't cheap. They already cost $3 million and are only increasing with time. With the better firepower and survivability of topline tanks IA can get away with less numbers and more quality that the T-72 lacks.

One of the rarer posts where i agree with armand completely, the moot point being would you take on a wild bull with another wild bull or with a Bull elephant even if the elephant eats more and costs slightly more. The T-80UD and the T-90 are products of the same design philosophy and are tanks designed primarily to avoid hits not survive hits(though i agree ERA & active protection systems have increased armor levels & hit avoidance probabilities to a large extent). The arjun is the subcontinental sibling of the tank that was designed to blunt and destroy the soviet armored thrust the Leo 2i.e the Arjuns design is based upon tansk that were designed to defeat the T-series.We need to induct more arjuns while phasing out older T-55's and Vijayantas(the vijayanta crews being more accustomed to western tanks could be given the arjun as the interior space levels are pretty much the same), the T-90 is a very good tank and should form the backbone of a medium heavy battle tank force for india for the coming one and half decades at least but it was always designed more for the steppes and vast empty expanses of Eurasia than the deserts of western India.I would go further than armand in my view
The Arjun should be the" Tip of the spear" of the IBG's the body of the spear would still remain the T-90
The T-90 should be the backbone of the strike divisions the lead elements to be Arjun.
The T-72"ajeya" should be the backbone of the defensive formations
In all i envision a 5000 tank force for the IA consisting of
1000 arjunsMK 1 & 2
2000 T-90s &m
2000 T-72 ajeya

Older T-72's could be used to close himalayan bottlenecks and detachments of these could be placed at forward bases in the ladakh plateau,to blunt any chinese armor in the region maybe a few could also be dug in as stationary gun emplaceaments in the sikkim heights& at key locations in the thar.Rest could be placed in reserve

As for the T-55's and vijayantas let's just say they would serve the nation better as monuments to indian armor at road circles and public parks than on the battlefield.

 

[ppgj]

Bottom line is IA needs Arjun. If they have a problem with transportation then they should be forward deployed as the Cold Start doctrine states. The question isn't how well it moves around India but how well it can get around in Pakistan. As the lead element of the strike Corps it will smash through the T-80s and Al Khalids like a hot knife through butter. The T-90 will only have a marginal advantage over such tanks and should be used for the defence of India where it can be easily transported by rail and follow up the victories on the front. What I would do is cancel the T-72 modernisation and start phasing them out with T-90s. Instead of T-90 being the lead element it would be replaced with the Arjun. DRDO needs a victory for indiginisation for itself and the country. Ordering 1,000 Arjun and keeping the T-90 will be more than enough tank to defeat both Pakistan and China. Arjun might be expensive, but the T-90 isn't cheap. They already cost $3 million and are only increasing with time. With the better firepower and survivability of topline tanks IA can get away with less numbers and more quality that the T-72 lacks.

i agree with you. that is a nice summation.

 

[notinlove]

I dont know if you know eco or not, at present order for HVF is 124 tanks, its engine and powerpack is not indian, if large order is given, Engine is already under development and with TATA envlove it wont be that difficult, given the experience TATA has got.

Therefore total order will go to 500 tank economies of scale will kick in.

In case of Russian T 90 tank a part from TOT fee you have production cost. no one has so far disclose the TOT cost of T 90 minus the Shorta-1 and no auxiliary power supply. (BTW cost also include commission paid to all).

CLGM which is JV product of LAHAT build to Indian specification.

I broadly agree with some of your points, but my point was that the things which according to Mr. shukla were not procured for the T-90, are never counted in the cost price of a single unit, until stated specifically, for example the MMRCA deal , nobody is stating the the cost of support systems and missiles,that does not mean that the IAF is cheating.
As for shtora , it was common knowledge that shtora was not purchased, even before Mr. shukla's exposé,The reason was that it was not a mature system,i have posted the summary of a firing test a few pages back, you can see the shtora was not considered a mature system even by the russians.
I humbly beg you not to bring conspiracy theories, if you have some substantial proof please post it for everybody to read

 

[notinlove]

NIL i can go on and on, i had two years of research on the tank, after i checked it out personally, earlier i too thought that it was substandard product, but when i checked it amour and compare it to T series tank, it was shocking how the T series armour was. Arjun has 4 time the amour in same area.

Arjun is build for crew safety.

I am not refuting your point that arjun is built for crew safety , but i find it really hard to believe that T-90 has a very substandard armour(my view is not based on ego or some unknown love for phoren maal , it is just based on common knowledge found on the internet, i am just an armchair expert and so are most of us here)

There is only one problem with the T series tanks and that is wrong placement of ammo storage, otherwise the Armour of T-90 is pretty good,

If you have come across something so substantial that changed your point of view completely then i think you should please post those sources, i am just a newbie and i think i can benefit from it.(i am not being sarcastic , it's a genuine request)

Thanx in advance

 

[gb009]

Bottom line is IA needs Arjun. If they have a problem with transportation then they should be forward deployed as the Cold Start doctrine states. The question isn't how well it moves around India but how well it can get around in Pakistan. As the lead element of the strike Corps it will smash through the T-80s and Al Khalids like a hot knife through butter. The T-90 will only have a marginal advantage over such tanks and should be used for the defence of India where it can be easily transported by rail and follow up the victories on the front. What I would do is cancel the T-72 modernisation and start phasing them out with T-90s. Instead of T-90 being the lead element it would be replaced with the Arjun. DRDO needs a victory for indiginisation for itself and the country. Ordering 1,000 Arjun and keeping the T-90 will be more than enough tank to defeat both Pakistan and China. Arjun might be expensive, but the T-90 isn't cheap. They already cost $3 million and are only increasing with time. With the better firepower and survivability of topline tanks IA can get away with less numbers and more quality that the T-72 lacks.

This doesn't seem like a good idea, specially since we inducted them not long ago. Better option would be to update them to T 90M if possible. Arjun may be better than it but we can't phase out tanks this early after inducting them.
Arjun could rather replace the remaining T 55s and oldest T 72s. Then when the T 95 comes out we could have a comparative trial of T 95 Vs Arjun MK2 and decide which to induct. So although in the near future we may have T72, T90, Arjun MK1 & T 95/Arjun MK2 (4 tank types) the aim would be to bring it down to T 90, Arjun & T 95/ Arjun MK2. If T 95 is not out by then may be IA will just have to induct Arjun MK2's for its requirement as that would definetly be better than T 90.
But how many Arjun MK1 does the IA go for right now is a difficult question to answer.

 

[sayareakd]

If you have come across something so substantial that changed your point of view completely then i think you should please post those sources, i am just a newbie and i think i can benefit from it.(i am not being sarcastic , it's a genuine request)
Thanx in advance

Sir, i dont believe in internet post, from unidentified source, what i am saying is from my own assessment of Arjun tank,
for record here is my source.



I can give lot of info about Arjun tank, but what is the use, enemy will use it to their advantage. Therefore let them first finish the comparative trails.

You have example one is Ajay shukla earlier harshest critic of Arjun tank, now just read article, that were after checking out Arjun's capabilities. Sir Ray, too have given great post regarding Arjun tank.

if you want more check my blog and youtube for "sayareakd" and you will see arjun tank info.

 

[ZOOM]

Sir, i dont believe in internet post, from unidentified source, what i am saying is from my own assessment of Arjun tank,
for record here is my source.



I can give lot of info about Arjun tank, but what is the use, enemy will use it to their advantage. Therefore let them first finish the comparative trails.

You have example one is Ajay shukla earlier harshest critic of Arjun tank, now just read article, that were after checking out Arjun's capabilities. Sir Ray, too have given great post regarding Arjun tank.

if you want more check my blog and youtube for "sayareakd" and you will see arjun tank info.

Saya, there is no harm in disclosing information over here itself. At the end of the day, information should be publish in broad view to know the base line of Arjun.

 

[p2prada]

agree but how do you know the cost of T-90 is less? you have any info analysis that others can see too and can you post it please.

The info is not open source. But, it doesn't take a Phd to understand that a 46 ton tank will have lesser maintenance than a 60 ton tank.

do you disagree with him?

He has still not answered if Arjun will be inducted at the same budget costs as a T-90 and with the same logistics footprint as the T-90. If he does I can agree with him.

Gen. shankar roy chowdhary was a COAS and a tankman. you think he can't think through.

Unfortunately, there is some one higher up who does not share his views.

also the cost of induction and life cycle cost drops as the numbers increase. if the army inducts Arjun in numbers, it is bound to come down.

No. Only unit costs come down as production increases. The cost of changing oil and refuelling the tank will remain the same.

how does relate to T-90 or Arjun?? it is a matter of tactics and situational awareness. both tanks can do that. finally which is superior will do a better job of finishing off.

This is because I believe the T-90s can be moved faster than the Arjun at war time.

i say that because they have not done that yet.

They have not done anything that compromises armies operational capabilities. No civilian MoD official or GoI official will come up to the army and say buy this and not that. GoI is not a fool.

ofc they can choose 2/3 which meets their requirement as proposed by them in the RFP. but GOI/MOD will decide the final aircraft keeping a larger strategy in mind.

No. IAF is going to choose one aircraft. MoD has given the go for IAF to choose anything they want.

how come greater accuracy, better crew protection, better mobility, better crew comfort, better armour, BMS is not a boost?? down the line defensive aids and net centricity will only add to it. and as the numbers increase the indigenous content will also grow, a link for which i have posted in the past. it adds to our independance in defence technology.

Let me know when Arjun gets stealthy, a radical new composite armour, a new high calibre gun and then we will talk. Until then all that you stated is not a boost. What you stated exists in every other tank in the world. Get something that is completely new and will force every other country on the planet to invest in new tank technologies and that would mean a boost in capability. Right now, greater accuracy, better crew protection, better mobility, better crew comfort, better armour, BMS only 'adds' to existing capability.

It is like how the Americans made the AESA operational and every other country wants a piece of it. It is like how the Germans came up with the V-2 rocket and the jet fighter. It is like how the British came up with a battle tank in WW1. It is like how the Huns came up with the stirrups on horses. This is an example of capability boost. Now, if Arjun does something similar, the extra costs in infrastructure can be ignored.

it is a fact. even now many systems are still not in place. i agree with ajai. maybe it was also the main reason why operation parakram was called off. T-90 has 1000hp engine while pakistan's T-80 has 1200 hp engine. being a basic T-90 with not even a good armour, they would have been sitting ducks.

So, a Chinese tank is better than a Russian tank. All because the Chinese tank uses a Russian-Ukranian engine. >>>>>>

strange thing about army is they want all systems in Arjun from the word go but that does not matter when it comes to T-90.

Definitely. DRDO is an unproven organization. They will need to deliver a completely finished product if they need anybody to purchase it. Do you think the ALH is an unfinished product?

The T-90 is coming from companies that have been developing tanks over the last 60 years. They will get the benefit of the doubt.

This is because we don't know what in the Arjun will fail at what point of time and how well can an unproven organization rectify it. But, we know the same about the T-90 because of its legacy.

can you elaborate what systems were in place in T-90 in 2000/2001??

Don't see why that is important???

also to be noted is Ajai Shukla has not been refuted by GOI or the army. if that was not so, the army would have been on him immediately.

Never has the army or GoI ever "pounced" on a journo for his remarks. It goes against the freedom of speech. And what charges will the army press against him, lying? Ajai Shukla is not in the decision making process and is also ex-army. He is pretty much a nobody as far as the army is concerned. So, they have no need to refute a journalist. Heck I have never seen any govt or organization running behind a journalist.

you keep bringing Abrams into the picture for no reason. as for as india and it's army is concerned, the debate is Arjun and T-90.

No. My discussion is based on a Heavy tank vs the medium tank and the logistics footprint which is pretty much similar for same class of tanks. So, any tank over 58.8 tons is a matter for discussion.

it was claimed not only by DRDO but also by RENK, the german manufacturers of the engine. this was alluded to by the minister too, the link of which i have posted in the past.

RENK will sell hundreds of engines if Arjun is accepted. Like I said, manufacturers claims are always taken with a pinch of salt. This needs to be inspected and audited by the govt like the Comptroller general for a decent verification of the accusation.

post winter trials, army chief wrote to MOD appreciating Arjun!!

Sure. And this ensures timely funding for the development of the Mk2 version and silencing critics. I have never said Arjun is not a good tank. All I have been saying is that in the Army POV the T-90 is cheaper and a better substitute to an existing doctrine compared to a new tank, especially when it will be replaced by a new tank in the future.

it is only natural in any trials there would be issues with any tank. point is are they insurmountable or can be fixed in short time.

All that transmission trouble is small thing. Just that the engine failed and that is a big thing.

army has consistently misled and exaggerated Arjun's problems - http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=320574

Another Ajai Shukla article.

http://frontierindia.net/passion-of-the-arjun-tank

while hiding T-90's problems.



http://frontierindia.net/t-90s-torsion-bar-problems-persist

Journos always like bloating up issues and sensationalizing them. If the army said the Arjun failed trials, not even DRDO can refute it or give excuses. Simple as that. Anybody saying otherwise, especially journos who were only running around clicking photos, is living a pipe dream. Calling the army a liar and and abusing the generals does not cut it.

 

[ZOOM]

The info is not open source. But, it doesn't take a Phd to understand that a 46 ton tank will have lesser maintenance than a 60 ton tank.

I don't think degree of tonnage has any direct correlation with Maintenance and servicing system, since Arjun employ as any other modern battlefield tank a Self Diagnostic system which exactly tell you what part of its sub system is having a problem through digital means.

He has still not answered if Arjun will be inducted at the same budget costs as a T-90 and with the same logistics footprint as the T-90. If he does I can agree with him.

Logistical budgeting also has nothing to do with size of the machine if IA employ some well informed and truly innovative techniques as being adopted by IAF in collabration with TCS whereby IAF can now manage its Logistical management in more efficient manner then in the past.

No. Only unit costs come down as production increases. The cost of changing oil and refuelling the tank will remain the same.

Once again, it all about mission achievement matters the most, since even T-90 is in the end a fuel guzzler and doesn't known for its ability for giving good fuel average.

This is because I believe the T-90s can be moved faster than the Arjun at war time.

How so? certainly tanks aren't supposed to get airborne and be their on action. It is not the speed of Individual tanks rather means of carrying capacity either through Railways and Roadways going to determine speedier deployment.

They have not done anything that compromises armies operational capabilities. No civilian MoD official or GoI official will come up to the army and say buy this and not that. GoI is not a fool.

Then why does incorrect report provided about T-90 in Lok Sabha about its prize and absence of key system like self protection system?

The T-90 is coming from companies that have been developing tanks over the last 60 years. They will get the benefit of the doubt.

Benefit of Doubt! at the cost of Indian Crew who will going to ride the same.

 

[ppgj]

@p2p

what is amazing about you is - you even beat the army in your opposition to Arjun.

all links speaking against T-90, you just brush aside and give benefit of doubt because they have been manufacturing for 60 years!!

all links speaking for Arjun, you say DRDO is unproven and hence cannot be inducted. how can anything be proven unless they are inducted??

even journalists speaking on facts turn out to be sensationalists!! great.

even the army has never spoken about cost at all!!

you are entitled to your view. i have no problems with that.

but belittling Arjun is not fair particularly when so many accounts of unfair trials have been well documented and still it has proven. an unproven DRDO has done better than 60 year old manufacturers!!

i rest it here.

 

[ZOOM]

I think both P2prada and PPJg need to first get calm down and not look to get fight with each other which will not get both of you anywhere. Both of you should first do some detail studies about both this MBT's and accordingly try to come at appropriate verdict. Capability and weakness of both this tanks is well documented, at the same time both this tanks carry their reputation in their own realm pretty well and hence fighting over it will not going to bring in conclusion about it. If Indian army willing to go ahead with T-90 then no issues with that, since war they have to fight in the end.

At the same time, supporters of Arjun should not forget the fact that 124 ordered Arjun's isn't any small number by any stretch of imagination and will going to comprise two Tank Battle groups which is more then enough to support both Offensive and Defensive battle tactics in South-Western command of IA.

 

[p2prada]

I don't think degree of tonnage has any direct correlation with Maintenance and servicing system, since Arjun employ as any other modern battlefield tank a Self Diagnostic system which exactly tell you what part of its sub system is having a problem through digital means.

Oh Yes it does. That Arjun self diagnostic system is still in the drawing board. It is not fitted.

Logistical budgeting also has nothing to do with size of the machine if IA employ some well informed and truly innovative techniques as being adopted by IAF in collabration with TCS whereby IAF can now manage its Logistical management in more efficient manner then in the past.

IAF logistics are completely different compared to IA. IA is in the field behind enemy lines, the air force is not. Maintaining supply lines beyond the border is a mammoth task. Size of the machine matters because the train engines only pull that much weight. Once the tanks cross the border, transports become useless. The tanks will have to rely on their legs to move.

Once again, it all about mission achievement matters the most, since even T-90 is in the end a fuel guzzler and doesn't known for its ability for giving good fuel average.

The T-90 guzzles lesser fuel than the Arjun.

How so? certainly tanks aren't supposed to get airborne and be their on action. It is not the speed of Individual tanks rather means of carrying capacity either through Railways and Roadways going to determine speedier deployment.

So, can you tell me which army uses transports for tanks in enemy territory. Transports are used to bring tanks from their bases to forward positions along the border. After that, the tanks move on their own.

Then why does incorrect report provided about T-90 in Lok Sabha about its prize and absence of key system like self protection system?

Can you give me the basis of the report? Why would the army give an incorrect report? More conspiracy. The report would have been perfect based on what the GoI would have asked for. The costs keep changing when the project starts. Any cost escalation will have to be notified to the govt, or else the funds will not come. So, rest assured, the govt knows the exact cost of the T-90s.

Benefit of Doubt! at the cost of Indian Crew who will going to ride the same.

In the end the army needs to win the war, not just participate in it.

The right statement would be at the cost of the entire nation and not just the tank crew.

 

[ZOOM]

Oh Yes it does. That Arjun self diagnostic system is still in the drawing board. It is not fitted.

So you and me are in agreement as far as maintanance issue is concerned, if once the same is fitted then certainly we can solve logistical and maintanance issue.

IAF logistics are completely different compared to IA. IA is in the field behind enemy lines, the air force is not. Maintaining supply lines beyond the border is a mammoth task. Size of the machine matters because the train engines only pull that much weight. Once the tanks cross the border, transports become useless. The tanks will have to rely on their legs to move.

First I quoted you on Cost-Benefit analysis and accordingly gave you the solution which can be put into practice to address logistical needs of IA as what has been done for IAF, since better logistical system in not tank specific alone and hence T-90 will have similar cost as Arjun.

Regarding fighting behind enemy line, I simply cannot understand what you are trying to say.

The T-90 guzzles lesser fuel than the Arjun.

How much in the end?

So, can you tell me which army uses transports for tanks in enemy territory. Transports are used to bring tanks from their bases to forward positions along the border. After that, the tanks move on their own.

Oh sorry, I misquoted you as I misread your statement. You statement has something to do with movement, so you think that enemy will not do anything to reduce that speed in the age of long range ATGM.

Can you give me the basis of the report? Why would the army give an incorrect report? More conspiracy. The report would have been perfect based on what the GoI would have asked for. The costs keep changing when the project starts. Any cost escalation will have to be notified to the govt, or else the funds will not come. So, rest assured, the govt knows the exact cost of the T-90s.

I never say Army gave wrong report, since Army general doesn't present in LS, it is Defence Minister I should say.

In the end the army needs to win the war, not just participate in it.

The right statement would be at the cost of the entire nation and not just the tank crew.

Oh you seems to be twisting the statements and dancing around it, I should say.

 

[p2prada]

@p2p

what is amazing about you is - you even beat the army in your opposition to Arjun.

The army beat me to it a long time ago. Even I was a vocal supporter of the Arjun until last year, a little before I joined this forum.

all links speaking against T-90, you just brush aside and give benefit of doubt because they have been manufacturing for 60 years!!

That's because they are questioning the credibility of one of the most successful tanks in history. The so called journos are simply speaking ill of another tank just to push their argument.

all links speaking for Arjun, you say DRDO is unproven and hence cannot be inducted. how can anything be proven unless they are inducted??

There are 2 options for the army. Buy local stuff or go out. Most countries did not have that option.

even journalists speaking on facts turn out to be sensationalists!! great.

Facts? What facts? We have shuklaji saying a 30 year old technology is not battleworthy on flimsy grounds. And says that the lack of ammo and overhauling of engines is a flaw.

even the army has never spoken about cost at all!!

What is this, a debate? Why will the army come out with public figures, this debate is an internal matter.

but belittling Arjun is not fair particularly when so many accounts of unfair trials have been well documented and still it has proven. an unproven DRDO has done better than 60 year old manufacturers!!

Nowhere have I said the Arjun is not a good tank. The army said one or the other tank trial failed, I will stick by it, because it is their word that counts and not some journos. Sure, the defects have been rectified, but how long has it been? These questions don't indicate the Arjun is inferior to the T-90.

All those accounts of unfair trials have come from journos and not from people who matter. Why do you listen to these journos that much? They add a lot of sh*t to sell their material.

i rest it here.

Same.

 

[p2prada]

So you and me are in agreement as far as maintanance issue is concerned, if once the same is fitted then certainly we can solve logistical and maintanance issue.

You misunderstood my statement. Do you think adding a self diagnostic system to the Su-30MKI will make it any cheaper than the LCA maintenance? No. No matter what kind of diagnostic systems you have you will still need to fix the problem. Adding a self diagnostic system will decrease the time for maintenance, but adds to the cost.

The T-90 is a small tank with lesser parts. So, the maintenance is easier. A heavy tank has a lot of parts and increases maintenance requirements.

When I said Oh yes it does...I was answering the first part of your post which said "I don't think degree of tonnage has any direct correlation with Maintenance and servicing system, "

So, no. I don't agree about T-90 and Arjun having the same logistics footprint.

First I quoted you on Cost-Benefit analysis and accordingly gave you the solution which can be put into practice to address logistical needs of IA as what has been done for IAF, since better logistical system in not tank specific alone and hence T-90 will have similar cost as Arjun.

Er. No. A heavy tank will have a killer logistics foot print compared to a medium tank.

Regarding fighting behind enemy line, I simply cannot understand what you are trying to say.

If you want to move from Lahore to Islamabad, the tanks will move on their own and will not be transported by rail. How many times have you seen the Iraq war on TV? Did you see the American tanks moving from city to city on transports or as convoys?

How much in the end?

The info is not open source. But common sense dictates a medium tank with a smaller engine is cheaper. I don't even know how much it costed the Americans to move 100 miles in 3 days in Iraq. But, it was easily as big as India's defence budget.

Oh sorry, I misquoted you as I misread your statement. You statement has something to do with movement, so you think that enemy will not do anything to reduce that speed in the age of long range ATGM.

This is an entirely different aspect. Nothing to do with what I am talking about.

I never say Army gave wrong report, since Army general doesn't present in LS, it is Defence Minister I should say.

Then he obviously gave the right report, unless some one else wants to say the defence minister and the army generals are all liars and that only the super journos are right.

Oh you seems to be twisting the statements and dancing around it, I should say.

No, you are giving too much weightage to crew comfort and speed compared to winning the war.

 

[ppgj]

@zoom,

it was the parliament's standing committee that the army misled. here is that news article by ajai shukla.

.......................................

Ajai Shukla: Friendly fire damages the Arjun

BROADSWORD

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi April 22, 2008

The Arjun tank is in pitched battle even before fully entering service with the Indian Army. Ironically, the most hostile fire is coming from the men who will eventually ride the tank into war: the army’s mechanised forces. These experts, it now emerges, have rubbished the tank before Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence; they say they will not accept the Arjun unless it improves considerably. What benchmarks it must meet remain undefined.

The Arjun saga encapsulates the pitfalls in any attempt to build a complex weapons system. It all began in 1974, when the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) undertook to build India’s own Main Battle Tank (MBT). The euphoria gradually waned as the DRDO missed deadline after deadline, eventually losing the army’s trust with unfulfilled promises that the tank was just around the corner. The army undermined the project in equal measure, periodically “updating” the design as technology moved on. DRDO scientists joke that whenever they approached a technology solution, the next issue of Jane’s Defence Weekly would give the army new ideas for upgrading their demands.

Exaggeration notwithstanding, the DRDO has a point in complaining about changes in the Arjun design goalposts. There is logic too in the army’s plea that it could not accept a 1970s, or a 1980s design in the 1990s and 2000. But there was neither logic nor reason in the recriminations that followed. Instead of design and R&D partners with equal stakes in the Arjun, the DRDO and the army locked themselves into mutual finger-pointing: no matter how much the Arjun was improved, there were always some flaws that remained to be sorted out.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD), meanwhile, watched mutely. With the Arjun ploughing through endless trials — 15 Arjuns have already run 75,000 km, and fired 10,000 rounds in the most extensive trials ever — the army insisted on another tank. In the late 1970s, the army bought the T-72; in the 1990s, the T-90s came along. But despite thousands of crores of rupees paid to Moscow, the Russian tanks have been raddled with problems; now hundreds of crores more are being spent in upgrading their night fighting capabilities, navigation equipment, radio sets, and their armour. Tens of Indian soldiers have died as the barrels of Russian tanks burst while firing.

In contrast, just Rs 300 crore was used in building and developing the Arjun. This is not to say that the Russian tanks are worthless. Operating military equipment is fraught with danger and upgrading is a continuous process. But the army’s tolerance for Russian defects contrasts starkly with its impatience for the Arjun.

Some army exasperation was, perhaps, understandable when the DRDO was plugging a tank that was not yet fit for the battlefield. But it is no longer justified when the Arjun is performing well. Soldiers from the 43 Armoured Regiment, which operates 15 trial Arjuns, praise the tank whole-heartedly. Problem solving will remain a part of operating the Arjun, just like with India’s Russian fleet. But while the soldiers and junior officers accept that the Arjun has come good, the generals remain fixed in the past.

As a result the army, incongruously, finds itself defending its Russian tanks from the Indian challenge of the Arjun. The tank’s developers, the Central Vehicle R&D Establishment at Chennai, has been clamouring for face-to-face comparative trials, where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 are put through the same paces. After first agreeing — and even issuing a detailed trail directive in 2005 — the army has backed away from comparative trials. Instead, it told the MoD that it was buying 124 Arjuns, and trials were needed only to ascertain its requirements for spares. While doing these trials — which have nothing to do with the Arjun’s performance — the army has testified before the Standing Committee on Defence that the tank’s performance was suspect.

Contrast the Indian Army’s approach with how other countries approach complex defence R&D projects with long gestation periods, where technology gets outdated during the development cycle. The four-nation Eurofighter consortium bypassed the “technology trap” by agreeing to first develop a simpler fighter, which all participants would buy as Tranche 1 of the project. During Tranche-1 manufacture, newly developed technologies would be harnessed into a newer, more capable Eurofighter. The last Tranche-1 aircraft was delivered last month; the new multi-role Tranche-2 aircraft has been developed, meanwhile; deliveries will start now. Clear development milestones and a more accepting approach by the users have made Eurofighter a success.

The army placed an order for 124 Arjuns eight years ago, when the tank was not even a viable fighting platform. Now that the Arjun is pulling its weight (almost 60 tons!) and those 124 tanks are rolling off the production line in Avadi, this order should be seen as Tranche-1. The CVRDE is refining many of the Arjun’s systems with technologies that have been developed more recently, particularly through harnessing India’s growing IT proficiency. Assuring a Tranche-2 order for improved Mark 2 Arjuns, and allocating R&D funding would set the project on a path where India might never need to buy a foreign tank again.

One reason for the army’s judgemental approach to the Arjun is its lack of involvement in the tank’s development. Unlike the navy, which has its own directorate of naval design, and which produces itself the conceptual blueprints of any new warship, the army has no technical expertise — nor any department — that designs its tanks. The Directorate General of Mechanised Warfare (DGMF) is staffed by combat officers from the mechanised forces, most of whom see the Arjun not as a national defence project, but as a tank that they must drive into battle. A whole new approach is needed.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ajai-shukla-friendly-fire-damagesarjun/320813/