They have himen and agents in India.
They have himen and agents in India.
Sir it hsd good thermal sight, we dont know much about T90 s sight. Plus MK-II has new optical sight you can watch only video of MK-II on defexpo thread.
It really does not matter who has agents or not.
What matters is what the IA feels about it.
Their lives will be up for the grabs and so their views should be paramount!
With the way the defence procurement is under the lens, reality should prevail.
Let the best tank win!
Why this fuss, what is left of Arjun to prove against T-90? T-90 is what it was against Mk-1 and we all know the results. After that Arjun has been further improved but what has been in T-90S? Media; both Indian and Russian, is making useless fuss calling it competitive trial which in reality is validation cum user trial. Arjun has proven its superiority and if coming trial is anywhere near re-proving that then Avadi should be asked to officially halt-unofficially dump T-90 production.
When? That latest test was obviously fishy thing when we consider all that political hype around Arjun. I explained it in another thread and taking in to consideration Arjun design, I highly doubt that it would be better than any tank made in a country with bigger experience in AFV's designing.
If someone would be fair here then tests should be performed with independent observers besides both competing sides supporters.
What bothers me is from what we know, designers didn't worked out basic weaknesses in Arjun design, like turret side armor, main sight placement, size of gun mantle, things that in XXI century should not be presented on 3rd generation MBT. Instead they focused on adding all these electronic gizmos that will not nececary help, for example that radar thing, placed on turret front armor prevents any armor upgrade there and is placed in the most exposed to enemy fire place. If this is how it would be on production vehicle then... I don't even know what to think about it.
Further they stick with rifled gun, I do not know why, when in anti armor role it is obsolete, and in mutlipurpose role smoothbore guns offer better than HESH ammunition.
And there is something more, Ukraine try to propose India their own upgrade for T-90S based on T-84M Oplot, if India would adopt this upgrade then T-90S will be clearly superior... on the other hand India can also adopt T-90MS with the same effect.
However Ukraine that desperatly needs export orders for T-84M, can offer this very good and dangerous tank to Pakistan... with current gun and ammunition both Arjun and T-90S allready will have problems with Pakistani T-80UD's. As it was discussed earlier, that problem could have been solved long time ago, if someone would for example thing to buy licence for Israeli smoothbore gun and buy better APFSDS ammunition from Israel or NATO (IRCC DM53 or DM63 can be buyed from Germany or KEW-A1 and KEW-A2 from US, KEW-A2 seems to be tungsten analog to M829A2 that is designd to defeat composite armors with heavy ERA, DM53/63 can also do that).
And currently views aren't that good, because not only Pakistani T-80UD's have heavy ERA (still based on 4S22 Kontakt-5 as it seems), but also Chinese tanks and Pakistani Al Khalids have heavy ERA. Both T-90S and Arjun will not be capable to defeat such protection with one shot. Also T-90S is better protected than Arjun when we consider vehicle size and weight, placement, exposure and size of weak zones. This makes situation problematic.
Russians and Ukrainians do not offer very long rods for their APFSDS ammunition and very long rods won't nececary fits in to currently used autoloaders, while Arjun in theory can use very long rods, nobody manufacture such APFSDS ammunition for rifled guns, while it is possible to place such rod in different sabot so it can be effectively fired from a rifled gun, it seems that nobody bothered to do that, or Indian decision makers didn't make any real order for such ammunition, while IMI only company that was considering to make such ammunition for India, was blacklisted.
So while everyone is happy because Arjun Mk2 will be tested, details shows that situation is not nececary bright.
Previous test were fishy if you have read abt black box disabled..
Latest test where T-90S was out preform in performance is true..
Rifled gun preformed well, there are new generation ammo too, we will see soon what are they though smooth-bore is a good option..
Regarding anti-Armour is obsolete is dead wrong, US wars and Russian wars are not same as Indian wars..
If applied its good, What is important to enhance the capability more of both tanks..
Regarding T-90MS, it have deign flaw, better update T-90S..
I have my doubts about latest tests, mainly because Arjun case is purely political and prestige problem + the fact that DRDO is state owned.
Yeah sure, the problem is that Russians and co. will design and export more and more heavy ERA in future, hey Indias enemys allready use heavy ERA on allmost all their tanks. So actually US approach to the problem of ammunition designed to defeat heavy ERA slowly will become approach for whole world.
Sure, but currently we have here rather a hate contest against T-90 than a merithoric discussion, most people tend to look at this by mentioned political, prestige and "patriotic" reasons, not vehicles design.
Our people aren't against T90 as such. We recognize the Russian metal in military hardware.
Bone of contention is that Indigenous development of technology and military hardware is still at the backseat. This is exactly where the real politics is. Money, corruption, kickbacks, brokerages ... list goes on.
We don't aim to be just another developing country of the so called third world. Looking ahead, the current procurement pattern doesn't fit the aims, the needs and hence the frustration in common populace.
Sure it is understanable, but there is no need to have all weapons as indigenous, many so called first world countries also do not develop tanks or aircrafts.
It might be issue of mentality, but in this regard Poland is not very different to India when it comes to weapons development problems, however as far as I can tell, our people are frustrated much because of that. General consensus is that if our industry can't develop something or it is not developed on time or with needed quality, then screw this, buy something from someone, and it's not a bad thing.
Sure we could start development of our own fighter but or it would be waste of money or the final effect won't be good, in the end it was cheaper to buy new F-16's from US, same goes with tanks, we had our own MBT programs, in the end Leopard 2A4 tanks from Germany stocks were choosen, however eventually it might be possible that new indigenous MBT program might start, preliminary technical and tactical objectives for a new tank were allready presented under codename "Wilk" (Wolf), however nobody expects that program will start before 2020, and there are doubts about how it could end and if it is not better to just buy new tanks from someone. And belive me, preliminary technical and tactical objectives for our new tank are even more ambitious than these for Arjun. In fact Wolf in many aspects seems to be closer to 4th generation MBT's than 3rd generation when it comes to frontal armor protection or firepower... some might even think that is is overambitious and unrealistic.
So really, there is no special need to make everything on our own, sometimes cheaper and more cost effective solution is to buy something off the shelf.
Last edited by Damian; 04-05-12 at 04:23 PM.
You are absolutely right in this.
Yet the points raised by Damian are valid :
1. Smooth bore gun
2. New ammunition
This all could have changed over and above th electronics.
Arjun mk 2 competing and being better than T90 --- Label should not have been enough, rather realistic challenge to threats nearby would have been better in planning the changes in arjun mk2
Ok to give You example of something, here are our "Wilk" MBT program demands:
1) Crew 3 to 4 soldiers,
2) High pressure, high calliber gun (120mm or higher),
3) Ammunition capable to perforate 1,000mm of RHA (yeah 1,000mm),
4) Line of Sight Fire 4,000m,
5) Ballistic protection over front capable to completely protect against ammunition for 120mm and 125mm guns,
6) Side armor of hull and turret completely protected against RPG's,
7) Minimum front armor thickness 1,000-1,200 mm RHA (I think it is not thickness but rather protection values),
8) Addon armor capable,
9) APU + modern electronics,
10) Range : roads 600km, off roads 300km,
11) Protection against 12kg TNT explosion under hull or track,
12) Protection against IED weighting 20-30kg.
Some people say that this project is overambitious and even such countries like US would not be capable to design such tank with it's overall weight not exceeding 65 tons (I doubt that it would not even exceed 100 tons in such case).
And this greatly shows that not allways indigenous development might be cost effective.
@ Damian you have no idea how strong russian arms lobby is in India, they have deep pocket and no death of supporters in armed forces for all the years of its business relations. In this regards you have to keep in mind what if Arjun tank had failed comparative trials, all those people and our media ( some of it on payrole) would have shouted at the top of their voices.
They are not doing it is prima facie proved what has happen in trials.
Thats old news, Arjun has better suspension and gun control compared to T-90 so its hit probability is better. All the short comeings of the Mk-1 will be rectified in Mk-2, the issue with smooth bore gun is not clear but with NERA or ERA armour. It will be better than some western tanks. The question of gun we will leave it for now.
Here is a report on arjun out gunning T-90. I know you cant digest it but it is true.
Russia's T-90 vs India's Arjun
Also read this thread..you may get an idea.
Last edited by Godless-Kafir; 04-05-12 at 05:12 PM.
Actually that black box incident was a pie in DRDO's face. After the failure in winter trials, the army pointed out there were engine problems. DRDO pointed out that there was no engine problems and that there was sabotage. So, DRDO announced installation of a black box so the Army does not "tamper" with the engine again.
However it turns out the Army had nothing to do with the failure. Turns out the transmission had new ball bearings and the manufacturer never informed DRDO about it. So, it was actually the transmission that failed.
Quite like how NAL Saras crashed because the manufacturer never informed that there was a new ignition sequence for the engine during mid flight.
Pie in DRDO's face according to what I was informed.
Object 195 possibly exceeds it and weighs 55 tons.
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