Why India does not manufacture Carbines its soldiers need?

[Kunal Biswas]

Does he knows how to clean and service his rifle, Ask that question to him before asking me anything ..

 

[Ky Loung]

While going through this article Saurav Jha's Blog : Putting the Indian Army's desire to import assault rifles in perspectiveI came across some interesting comment about drdo and Insas @Kunal Biswas Sir,your thoughts.

Hangfire is very dangerous. Hangfire is the delay ignition of the cartridge. Pull the trigger nothing happen, a few seconds latter the bullet shoot out of the barrel. The delay ignition of the cartridge can lead to many dangerous scenarios for the shooter and anyone close by. It is 100% ammo related. If hangfire is common the quality control of the ammo is piss poor. These bad ammo should never be use.

In all my shooting I never have a hangfire only misfire. Misfire is the failure to ignite.

Double feed can cause by the rifle or magazine or both. Extractor and/or magazine are the main two causes of double feed. There are other causes tho. Double feed is when two cartridge is in the chamber (both live or one live and spent). Extractor did not extract the spent cartridge and a live round feed in. This will of course cause a double feed.

Bad design or damage magazine can cause two live rounds to feed in at the same time. Magazine spring could be weak and need to be replace. Magazine body could be damage. Magazine feed lips could be damage. Magazine follower could be subpar.

The first generation of AR15(M16) magazine cause double feed due to bad follower design. The second generation magazine fixed it for the most part. When Ar15 became the best selling rifle in America. Companies like Magpul tries to meet the public demand for even greater magazine reliability. Magpul first introduce the anti-tilt follower to the American market (first invented by the Koreans) which drastically improve magazine reliability. Over the years all A15 magazines use some kind of anti-tilt design. I have over 100 magpul magazines but my go to magazines is the Lancer L5. They are ultra reliable due to their harden feed lips. Keep in mind all magazines can be worn out. Don't be in love with your magazine.

Magpul Anti-Tilt Follower
https://www.google.com/search?q=mag...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

Lancer L5 Mag
https://www.google.com/search?q=lan...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

If the cover system is anything like the AK, any sights mount on it will not hold zero.

 

[Ky Loung]

Sir ,

A bit off topic,if i am not wrong u r ex army and now residing in US.So you must have experience on both weapon system m16/M4 and INSAS .Which fairs better as per you.

You can ask this guy. I believe he live in America and probably have a number of AR15.

Indians For Guns • View topic - The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

For the AR15 all you need is to put on a carbine upper and you're good to go. In other words take off the 20" barrel upper (takes around 2 seconds to do) and replace it with let said 14.5" barrel upper (another 2 seconds to install). You just converted an AR15 rifle to an AR15 carbine.

Want a PDW? Replace the carbine/rifle upper with a 10.5" or smaller upper and you got a PDW AR15. Takes seconds to do. So easy to do that I couldn't find a video showing it.

Want to go light machinegun AR15 can do that too. M27 IA, AR15 configured to use as a light machinegun role.

My main go to AR15 is in PDW configuration (10.5" barrel) with suppressor. Took the PDW upper off. Took the suppressor off to show how small it is. Compare it with a 16" barrel carbine upper. Than mate it with the lower. Here are the photos. Starting from DSC00285 to DSC00290.

http://www.digitalrev.com/album?id=30773103&photoView=DV

 

[sgarg]

The quality problems in OFB and all other public sector companies are serious labour problems and lack of discipline.

The parts are being made by sub-contractors (often very small companies) and nobody is taking QA seriously. Batches are passed through bribes.

The only way out is to let private sector build the whole systems. Public sector has too many problems - discipline, bad tendering processes, corruption etc. It is impossible to improve public sector.

 

[sgarg]

I do not doubt the desire of army to import rifles. But army should prefer involvement of private sector. Large private companies can do a really good job in meeting Army requirements.

I have no vested interest to bat for private sector. It is just that I have seen inefficiency and corruption in public sector. There are problems in private sector also but some companies have very good managements and these should be the ones used by defence.

I am sure Tata or Mahindra will not say no if the government gives them the mandate to build rifles and other small weapons.

 

[Ky Loung]

I'm all for private sector. Government always screw up, produce little, require more money, etc. In America private sector do everything better and at a cheaper cost.

In America the private sector take the lead. If the US military wants something, all they do is ask for a bid and the finial product. Military than decide which company won the contract. Not always but in most cases the low bids tend to win the contract. It doesn't mean the finial product is bad. The finial product must meet all the requirement stated in the contract.

For products that already been develop like AR15 GI magazine. The military gives the AR15 GI magazine technical data package (TDA) to companies that produce for the military. The package contains all the information and requirements needed for the company to pass quality control. So let said 10 companies are producing AR15 GI magazine. Those 10 companies will make the exact same magazine. You won't be able to tell the difference.

In regard to producing military stuff, most are made by robots. Professional CnC machinery can run 24/7 without the need of human actions. Over the years CnC machinery cost came down to a point where hobbyist could afford them. A good hobbyist CnC machinery can be bought below $3k in the USA. Professional CnC machinery can run in the millions but those are very precises or/and design to mass produce. A typical hobby CnC machine can make military spec weapons without a problem.

AR15 GI magazine produce by robots.
CProducts Robotic Cell - YouTube

Hobby CnC machining AR15 receivers from home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAdnZ6xsWtU

 

[apple]

The carbine that is presently in use in Indian army was designed by George William Patchet, the Chief Designer of the Sterling Armament Company, way back in 1944 in response to a Qualitative Requirements (QR) circulated by the British General Staff in the same year. The weapon was formally introduced in the British Army as Sterling Sub Machine Gun L2A1 in 1953. It remained in service there till 1988, and Model L85 A1 was the last variant. The Indian army has been using the Sub Machine Gun 9 mm 1A1, a variant of L2A1, produced under license by the Ordnance Factories Board (OFB), since sixties.

Why India does not manufacture Carbines its soldiers need? - Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS)

Does the Indian Army refer to the Sterling as a carbine? Not quite sure of that blog's military credentials. The L85 is totally different from the Sterling.

IThe carbine failed rather spectacularly with excessive flash and recoil issues. The total burn out point of the ammunition always came outside the barrel, partly due to burn profile of 5.56 INSAS (designed for long range engagement in rifle and LMG) and partly because our designers could not design a decent carbine.

Burn profile is an interesting term. Can you explain that?

When all the variables are equal, carbines are always going to have more recoil and flash than a rifle. How much more does it need to be to be excessive?

 

[ghost]

apple;946713]Does the Indian Army refer to the Sterling as a carbine? Not quite sure of that blog's military credentials. The L85 is totally different from the Sterling.

Sir,

In India we refer to it as SUB MACHINE GUN CARBINE 9 mm 1A1.

Yes , L85 is totally different and not a sterling variant .

 

[Ky Loung]

Does the Indian Army refer to the Sterling as a carbine? Not quite sure of that blog's military credentials. The L85 is totally different from the Sterling.



Burn profile is an interesting term. Can you explain that?

When all the variables are equal, carbines are always going to have more recoil and flash than a rifle. How much more does it need to be to be excessive?

I assume it how the powder burn. Different powder burn different. Some powder burn faster, some slower, some in between. Powder made for handgun caliber should only be use in handgun. Powder made for rifle should only be use in rifle. Powder react differently depending on the barrel length. There is an entire scientific field to study and produce the best gun powder.

What's the barrel length of INSAS carbine? The shorter the barrel the bigger the flash, more recoil, and stronger concussion. It suck to be standing next to a guy shooting a short barrel rifle. You'll get hit by concussion waves. These waves are magnified if the shooter is using a brake/compensator. Not fun at all getting hit by concussion waves.

Flash can be cut down by using a good flash suppressor. There are different flash suppressor for the AR15 platform. Some of these flash suppressor will reduce the flash by over 90%. Flash suppressor + sound suppressor (silencer) will reduce the flash to 0%.

Where's the flash hider comparison? - AR15.COM

AR15 Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider/Compensator Comparison, Part 3

AR15 muzzle brake/flash hider comparison - YouTube

Recoil can be manage by properly knowing how to handle the carbine/short barrel rifle. You can add a good muzzle brake/compensator. It will eliminate muzzle flip and reduce felt recoil but at the expense of increase sound, stronger concussion waves, and increase flash.

For the AR15 you can exchange for a heavier buffer and recoil spring. It will slow down the reward movement of the bolt (reduce rate of fire) which in turn reduce felt recoil.

Mil spec Monkey using battle comp. Shooting with one hand.
BattleComp 1.0 Testing - YouTube

There are so many new products come out each year for the AR15 platform. It is really hard to keep track all off it. I just found out there is a reduce concussion waves muzzle device on the market. Cost around $180 tho.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8-ju332HAA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH13VFhilTU#t=162
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdp-4XyMCPs#t=43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQhYDOFL13w


http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4189

 

[Ky Loung]

Sir,

In India we refer to it as SUB MACHINE GUN CARBINE 9 mm 1A1.

Yes , L85 is totally different and not a sterling variant .

Subgun and Pistol caliber carbines are not use in the US military and Law Enforcement (LE) anymore. They are weak (can't penetrate soft body armor, shorter range) and outdated. All replaced by PDW (personal defense weapon). Short barrel rifle chambering intermediate cartridge, ie 5.56. The Mk18 and variant (10.5" barrel or shorter) is the most popular in the USA. Mk18 is basically an AR15 with a 10.5" upper. It is use by the US military, LE, and US citizens. I personally own a Mk18 variant.

Official Mk 18 & CQBR Photo and Discussion Thread - AR15.COM

Subgun, pistol carbine, and handgun converted to carbine still sell and develop for the civilian market.

Kel Tech 2000
http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/kel-tec-sub-2000/

CAA Roni. Convert Glock handgun into carbine. Drop in.
CAA Roni Glock Carbine Kit Review - YouTube

M169. AR15 9mm subgun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euBMvpyxlJM

 

[Twinblade]

I assume it how the powder burn. Different powder burn different. Some powder burn faster, some slower, some in between. Powder made for handgun caliber should only be use in handgun. Powder made for rifle should only be use in rifle. Powder react differently depending on the barrel length. There is an entire scientific field to study and produce the best gun powder.

What's the barrel length of INSAS carbine? The shorter the barrel the bigger the flash, more recoil, and stronger concussion. It suck to be standing next to a guy shooting a short barrel rifle. You'll get hit by concussion waves. These waves are magnified if the shooter is using a brake/compensator. Not fun at all getting hit by concussion waves.

The length of the INSAS carbine barrel was 330 mm (464 mm for standard rifle), carbines with even shorter barrels are standard today. The aim of the INSAS project was to have the same gun with different barrel lengths and furniture, ie just change the barrel and furniture on the rifle and it's a carbine or LMG (no other changes required). This coupled with a rather slow burning 5.56 INSAS ammunition with a 64 grain bullet meant the abovesaid issues popped up. Apparently even after muzzle brakes and compensators, it did not come within the acceptable limit. Once ARDE the designer abandoned the project, OFB the manufacturer tried to resurrect the carbine by adding an expansion chamber attached to the barrel (Kalantak carbine) for the burning powder to expand, thus reducing the recoil, but that also didn't make the cut. The designers should have been smart enough to realise these issues at the inception of the project.

Could the problem be rectified by using SS109 or M193 equivalent ammunition? A different ammunition for carbine might not have been a problem as INSAS fires standard NATO cartridges as well and did for many years before the 5.56 INSAS went into mass production and all the imported guns in the forces use M193 and SS109 equivalent ammo. Could the INSAS carbine be rescued by using a slightly longer barrel (14 inches) and/or by reducing commonality with LMG and Rifle? Maybe. Ultimately as to why the INSAS carbine project was such a failure, not much information is available other than this. Apparently the designer has spent more time and energy introducing PDWs in INSAS family (based on 5.56x30 MINSAS round) than a fresh carbine design, reinforcing the idea that they truly exhausted their options in the 5.56x45 carbine, which is a shame considering that 330mm isn't considered much of a short barrel anymore.

 

[Ky Loung]

SS109 is European. 62g bullet if I remember right. American use two type M193 and M855. M193 is 55g and M855 is 62g. M855 is use most of the time. M855 and SS109 are different. Different powder, different primer, different bullet design, different brass, etc.

Changing ammo might solve your burning problem. SS109 or M855 should be tested. A 1/7 barrel twist rate is what we use for 62g bullet. You can get away with a 1/9 twist rate.

The shorter the barrel the higher the rate of fire. Slowing below 700RMP is desirable. It will cut down on a lot of problems like recoil and failure to feed issues. A higher rate of fire means magazine spring must be strong enough to meet the demand.

I personally have no issue controlling carbine/short barrel rifle without a muzzle brake but that only one shot per trigger pull. In the USA we are train not to use full auto or burst. We are train to shot single shot for better accuracy, control, and ammo preservation. No shoot and pray like the Vietnam era. The US military do not advocate full auto or burst in most situation for rifleman. Burst and full auto are for the person who is humping the light machinegun (SAW) in the squad. His job is suppress the enemy while the rest go in for the kill. An exception is close quarter combat where burst or full auto can be desirable.

So the question is, does majority of time Indian troops goes full auto? Only train in full auto uses?

Any decent brakes/compensator should prevented muzzle raise. Believe it or not muzzle brake makers are more concern not making brake go negative, pushing the muzzle toward the ground. Muzzle brake does have it draw back like I posted, big flash, increase noise level, and stronger concussion waves.

Magazine play a very important roll on the reliability of any firearm. A poorly design magazine can cause untold problems for the firearm especially with a high rate of fire. In the USA the private sector spend millions in R&D to create the prefect magazine. Proving quality magazine will improve the overall performance in any firearm.

The videos below are 1st generation PMAG. 1st are no longer produce. 2nd and 3rd generation PMAG is in the market.

PMag drop test.
-30 F Magpul PMag M loaded drop test - YouTube

PMag vs Truck
Magpul PMag versus a Chevy Truck - YouTube

Shot Pmag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAUFHEJFf-E

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Solider of any nation does not use full auto in one go, It is always taught and practice to conserve ammunition, IA requirement to have a sub-machine gun with lower recoil yet have range of 200-300ms, Based on this specification OFB produce MSMC ..

 

[apple]

Muzzle brake does have it draw back like I posted, big flash, increase noise level, and stronger concussion waves.

Haven't seen much military use of muzzle brakes, probably for the reasons you mentioned. Some of the stupidly big (50 cal, etc...) sniper rifles use them and think, long, long ago the Bren gun had one.

Flash can be cut down by using a good flash suppressor. There are different flash suppressor for the AR15 platform. Some of these flash suppressor will reduce the flash by over 90%. Flash suppressor + sound suppressor (silencer) will reduce the flash to 0%.

Have seen lots of footage of the Australian SAS (or actually maybe they were Commandos) using M4's, with suppressors, in Afghanistan.

 

[Ky Loung]

How low of the recoil does the military want? INSAS is a long stroke piston. Both long and short stroke piston recoil will be nowhere near AR15 direct impingement (DI) guns. DI guns by it nature have very soft recoil and that because the bolt itself is the piston. Give an AR15 to a pre teen girl and she will have prefect control over the DI rifle in semi auto with some training of course.

Still the recoil from both long and stroke piston carbine should not cause trouble in semi auto mode. It will have more recoil than an AR15 but can be control without much of a problem. .22 caliber like 5.56 and 5.45 produce very weak recoil compare to battle caliber rifle like 7.62x51 NATO or 7.62x54R.

Does the standard INSAS have harsh recoil, like those of battle rifle caliber, 303, 7.62x51 NATO, 7.62x54R, etc. The military could outsource the INSAS carbine project to a US/European company. Probably will save you guys a lot of time and money in the long run.

Delta Force 360 Live Fire.
Room Clearing Delta Force.wmv - YouTube

SX3 shotgun. Semi auto. Fastest shotgun in the world. Perfect control by Patrick.
Patrick Flanigan and Winchester SX3 Fastest Shotgun in the World - YouTube

 

[ghost]

How low of the recoil does the military want? INSAS is a long stroke piston. Both long and short stroke piston recoil will be nowhere near AR15 direct impingement (DI) guns. DI guns by it nature have very soft recoil and that because the bolt itself is the piston. Give an AR15 to a pre teen girl and she will have prefect control over the DI rifle in semi auto with some training of course.

Still the recoil from both long and stroke piston carbine should not cause trouble in semi auto mode. It will have more recoil than an AR15 but can be control without much of a problem. .22 caliber like 5.56 and 5.45 produce very weak recoil compare to battle caliber rifle like 7.62x51 NATO or 7.62x54R.

Does the standard INSAS have harsh recoil, like those of battle rifle caliber, 303, 7.62x51 NATO, 7.62x54R, etc. The military could outsource the INSAS carbine project to a US/European company. Probably will save you guys a lot of time and money in the long run.

Delta Force 360 Live Fire.
Room Clearing Delta Force.wmv - YouTube

SX3 shotgun. Semi auto. Fastest shotgun in the world. Perfect control by Patrick.
Patrick Flanigan and Winchester SX3 Fastest Shotgun in the World - YouTube

I don't think recoil was the reason for its rejection by army,however no one knows for sure what went wrong in trials.Kalantak is still on sale by OFB,this is from offical OFB website.Where kalantak is still offered for sale

Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle is a gas operated automatic, air cooled, folding butt Rifle. It is a very power full, light weight & compact weapon for CQB & Personnel Defence Weapon Role. The weapon uses the same ammunition (5.56x45mm) as used in Rifle/ LMG, thus reducing the logistic problems in having different kind of ammunitions for different role of weapons. It's design and mechanism is simple and having the capability to accommodate the various modern optical sights like Red Dot Sight, Holographic, MARS etc, available internationally in the market. The weapon is having much lesser recoil and muzzle jump than any of the Assault Rifles, and therefore it is having more hitting probability in auto mode of firing than any other Assault Rifles. Due consideration has been given for Reliability, Ergonomics and Aesthetics in designing of the Weapon. The furniture items will be subjected to continual improvement from human engineering point of view.

Ordnance Factory Board


However ARDE has come up with some more projects ,MCIWS rifle in particular if it is successful in trials, then I think a sbr version of it will be created for carbine else foreign carbine would be purchased.

These are the new products from ARDE

Trichy assault rifle-ofb AK

Amogh carbine

MCIWS assault rifle

JVPC CARBINE/PDW

What do you think about these?

 

[Ray]

For general interest

As all those who were not asleep in physics should remember: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction (Newton's Third Law of Motion). Considered simply, recoil is the motion of a firearm in the opposite direction to that of its projectile. It is affected by the weight of the gun, the weight of the projectile, and, most notably, by muzzle velocity.

The first phase - primary recoil - begins momentarily after the primer is detonated, the ignited propellant rapidly creates an expansion of gas that overcomes the inertia of the shot charge and wad and accelerate them down the barrel. There is also a force of friction and air resistance to overcome. Secondary recoil - the effects of which are much smaller - starts when the ejecta (pellets, wad and burnt powder) leave the barrel and there is a sudden release of gas. The gun is pushed back much like a rocket.

Having adhered to the KISS philosophy thus far, it might now be revealed that recoil is not only about rearwards movement. There is also a rotation about the axis of the shoulder when a gun is fired. This is because the centre line of the bore is above the shoulder line. When this rotation effect occurs, the muzzle/s moves up and the cheek piece of the gun may be brought into abrupt contact with the zygoma of the skull - the ridge of bone extending from the cheekbone to the temporal bone. At the same time the butt sole may slip from the shoulder (especially if it is poorly designed with a very inclined comb or, if the gun is being fired from an awkward or inappropriate position.)

Primary and secondary recoil must also be distinguished from felt or perceived recoil - the experience of recoil by the gun user. Felt recoil is a complex subjective phenomenon involving many variables. Factors affecting felt recoil will include those already mentioned (weight of the gun, projectile weight etc.), the design and fit of the gun stock, the burn rate of the powder, the physique, strength and constitution of the individual, the firing position (firing from a prone position may increase felt recoil because movement is severely restricted - one cannot 'roll with the punches') and, not least, the individual's shooting technique and experience. A gun held loosely or in insufficient contact with the shoulder - a common failing of beginners - will appear to recoil far more than one held more firmly. [Experienced shots, however, do become expert at absorbing recoil through the hands]

We must also distinguish between the subjective experience of recoil and the actual effects of it. They are not necessarily synonymous. For example, a situation could be conceived where an individual was being damaged by recoil without being aware of it at the time of firing. Excessive recoil in firearms has certainly been recognised as a problem for hundreds of years. Moreover, different users may react quite differently to the same gun and cartridge combination. Some people are clearly more sensitive to recoil than others. Poor technique or unsuitable equipment are usually to blame for recoil problems, but, not in every case.

Many, if not most, the great authors on the shotgun have referred to recoil. Edgar Harrison, for example, writes succinctly on the subject in his 1906 work Dissertation upon Guns and Shooting. In an era of the great driven shoots, he noted: "Nowadays recoil must be lessened, as the number of shots fired per day increases. Recoil is high with a light gun, a big charge of shot, and a high velocity, and when the powder used requires a large number of grains to the charge. Conversely, recoil is at its least with a heavy gun, a small charge of shot, a low velocity, and a powder whose weight of charge is small." Major Burrard considers the question in much more depth in the Modern Shotgun, first published 1932 (and his comments are well worth reading if you want to explore this subject further). These are but two examples amongst hundreds in shooting literature.

There has also been some academic enquiry into the effects of recoil. In 1962, Ralph Hoge, inventor of the 'Hydro-Coil' stock and Dr C.G.Hutter published the results of a series of experiments on the effects of recoil on the gun user. Their conclusion was that recoil was more dangerous than had previously been thought. Dr. Hutter believed that recoil placed a potentially serious strain on both the pulimonary and respiratory systems. He also stated that the impact trauma caused by recoil damaged the tissue behind the gunstock. He was especially concerned about the effects on female shooters and children.

In 1974 Dr William Wanamaker of the Department of Neurology of the University of Wisconsin Medical Centre published a paper (Arch Neurol/Vol 31 Sept. 1974) on 'Firearm Recoil Palsy'. He describes the cases of three patients who suffered injury to the upper trunk of the right bachial plexus from recoil. Two of the patients abstained from shooting and recovered, the third continued to shoot and his deficit became permanent. In his final comments Wanamaker noted:

"Firearm recoil in an average 12 bore shotgun may range from 0.8 to 2.5 joules...With each shot...the rearward acceleration or recoil force, must be dissipated by motion or compression of shoulder structures or both and acceleration of the trunk backwards. Thus, with each shot, the recoil causes a violent retraction or rearward motion of the lateral part of the clavicle...Factors predisposing to or aggravating trauma must exist since most people who shoot firearms are not injured...Treatment of brachial plexus injury from firearm recoil depends on the recognition of the traumatizing force. The patient should abstain from shooting, at least until signs and symptoms of nerve injury and irritation have abated."

Academic research has also been undertaken in Britain in more recent years at the Impact Research Centre of the University of Liverpool under the auspices of Dr R.S.Birch (who has published a number of articles on the subject in the shooting press). One interesting product of this was that increasing forcing cone length made no observable difference to recoil and back boring only very slight differences. Though this may well be true, my impression is that internal bore diameter does make a difference to felt recoil. On testing guns, I have frequently noted that those with tight bores (say 18.3mm) have appeared to kick more than those with wider dimensions.

Because of particular concerns about recoil in the case of those who shoot tens of thousands of cartridges a year, there has been a progressive reduction in the maximum permitted loads in International and domestic clay pigeon shooting competition in recent years. The first reduction was made by UIT (the International Shooting Union - the body which controls Olympic clay pigeon shooting) in 1976. Others followed in 1989 and 1993. Similar initiatives have been made by domestic clay pigeon shooting associations.

It is well known in shooting circles that excessive recoil can lead to flinching - a sudden muscle tension or spasm in anticipation of recoil - and to neck and shoulder problems (especially in those who shoot a great deal). Any professional shooting instructor will have heard clients complaining of recoil on hundreds of occasions: a significant part of my instructional work certainly involves altering firearms or technique to reduce observed or felt recoil.

Modern cartridge makers are especially conscious of the potential problem of recoil (and the market demand for low recoiling cartridges) and have developed cartridges which allow for high velocities but relatively low felt recoil. This is achieved by various means which include, careful propellant and primer selection and development, the introduction of shock absorbing base wads, compressing plastic wads, and, not least, by the fashion for reduced cartridge payload. As far as competition clay pigeon shooting is concerned, these have become much more popular in recent years. They are used by many through choice, not just because they are stipulated by the rules of certain competitions.

Similarly, gun designers are well aware of the problem of recoil. There has been much experimentation to reduce the actual and felt recoil of firearms in recent years. The trend in the military has been towards much smaller cartridges for rifles. The .303 and .308 have now been replaced with the much softer shooting, 5.56mm. Shotgun manufacturers have experimented with bore size and bore geometry as a means of reducing felt recoil and many of the most modern shotguns use a gas operated system which bleeds off propellant gas from the chamber to cycle the action.

Dozens of devices or modifications have been marketed over the years as a means to reduce felt recoil. These include recoil pads, muzzle brakes, barrel porting, mercury and mechanical 'recoil' reducers, lengthened forcing cones (the funnel like constriction which leads from the bore of a shotgun to the main bore), the back boring of barrel (widening the bore size), pneumatic, sprung or hydraulic telescopic stock conversions, and padded cheek pieces. Some of these devices have a negligible or non-existent effect, some are well proven (e.g. recoil pads made of modern shock absorbing materials).

Recoil, as will be clear by now, is quite a complex subject if considered technically. Let us end by trying to keep it simple! The commonest causes of excessive felt recoil are poor mounting technique, poor stock design and/or fit (too short a stock or one with an excessively inclined comb) and unsuitable cartridge-gun combinations as noted. The simplest cures are light loaded, light payload, cartridges and the fitting of one of the modern high-tech polymer pads such as the Kick-Eez. If you shoot clays or pigeons consider a gas-operated semi-automatic if all else fails. Although it is unwise to ignore the effects of recoil and it makes sense to keep it to minimum, the vast majority of Shots quite capable of firing thousands, if not tens of thousands, of cartridges a year without harm provided technique is sound, the gun fits and the gun and cartridge combination is suitable.
An Understanding and History of Recoil

 

[Ky Loung]

I don't think recoil was the reason for its rejection by army,however no one knows for sure what went wrong in trials.Kalantak is still on sale by OFB,this is from offical OFB website.Where kalantak is still offered for sale

Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle is a gas operated automatic, air cooled, folding butt Rifle. It is a very power full, light weight & compact weapon for CQB & Personnel Defence Weapon Role. The weapon uses the same ammunition (5.56x45mm) as used in Rifle/ LMG, thus reducing the logistic problems in having different kind of ammunitions for different role of weapons. It's design and mechanism is simple and having the capability to accommodate the various modern optical sights like Red Dot Sight, Holographic, MARS etc, available internationally in the market. The weapon is having much lesser recoil and muzzle jump than any of the Assault Rifles, and therefore it is having more hitting probability in auto mode of firing than any other Assault Rifles. Due consideration has been given for Reliability, Ergonomics and Aesthetics in designing of the Weapon. The furniture items will be subjected to continual improvement from human engineering point of view.

Ordnance Factory Board


However ARDE has come up with some more projects ,MCIWS rifle in particular if it is successful in trials, then I think a sbr version of it will be created for carbine else foreign carbine would be purchased.

These are the new products from ARDE

Trichy assault rifle-ofb AK

Amogh carbine

MCIWS assault rifle

JVPC CARBINE/PDW

What do you think about these?

More calibers more trouble. Unless 5.56x30 is the standard caliber for the armed force it shouldn't be consider. The US military (Army, Airforce, Navy, Marine) use 5.56x45, 7.62x51NATO, and 9mm. New weapon platforms must chamber one of those three. It doesn't matter if XXX is better than those standard 3 caliber, it will not be accepted in the US military. Standardization is good.

Free floating barrel means there nothing attached to the barrel except the gas block. Free float barrel does not increase accuracy, all it does is prevent accuracy from being degraded. The AK and I'm pretty sure INSAS does not use free floating handguard.

The standard issued M4 and M16 do not use free floating handguard. The current M4 and M16 handguard (rail and non-rail version) dated back 15 or so years ago when free floating handguard wasn't on the market. The next generation of M4 and M16 will be free float. Special Ops guys do have the freedom to config their M4 to whatever they like. So a lot Special Ops M4 carbine have free floating handguard rails. The majority of civilian owned AR15 have free floating handguard.

The more things you attach to the barrel the more it degrade accuracy. Attaching a heavy grenade launcher to the barrel won't increase accuracy for the end user.

The M320 is currently our standard issue grenade launcher. It can be mounted on the handguard rail or operate as a standalone. Most prefer standalone for greater flexibility.

M320
https://www.google.com/search?q=m32...d=0CDQQyjc&ei=xtQcVJHpIM6pogS3nYCgCQ#imgdii=_

M320 stand alone in action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtM8gow80iA

 

[Twinblade]

I don't think recoil was the reason for its rejection by army,however no one knows for sure what went wrong in trials.Kalantak is still on sale by OFB,this is from offical OFB website.Where kalantak is still offered for sale

Kalantak is an OFB designed project (adding that expansion chamber to the old INSAS Carbine barrel designed by ARDE)

These are the new products from ARDE
Trichy assault rifle-ofb AK

Trichy rifle is again a rifle factory trichy, OFB, product, currently competing with AKM knock offs from OFB's Kanpur and Ishapore (i think) division.

The JVPC/Milap/MSMC pdw is too heavy for its own good (3 Kgs empty, almost as much as a rifle) and heavier than the gun it is supposed to replace (sterling gun) and also guns available in similar roles (MP-7, Fn P90, Brugger and Thompson MP9 and slightly more than SAAB CBJ-MS which fires a larger bullet) and neither does it help in reducing the ammunition variety, instead adding one more ammo type to the inventory (ie unless they introduce a handgun in 5.56 MINSAS like the 5-7 pistol thereby completely replacing 9mm from inventory). You can see why the user hasn't been overly enthusiastic.

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

I think ofb has acquired the license to built the erstwhile MTAR 21 Micro Tavors under the name Zittara. Cant we at least use the technology in developing an indigenous carbine for IA??