Indian Army Artillery

[sob]

It can take 4000 kg on external sling and it has operational ceiling of 6,000 m.

http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/civil/mi-817/features.html

If MI 17 can carry 4000 KG at 6000 m then all our problems for Cheetah replacement have been solved specially for the Siachen sector.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, The PARA units operate ZU-23 twin and these are carried via Dhruv and MI-17 helicopter ..

I am not too sure that they have their integral AD.

===============

At that altitude their is no place for landing such an huge helicopter nor they can hover at low altitude, Their are places where helicopter cannot land but have to drop payload to troops down below ..

For such reasons MI-17 are used by Airforce and they are operational till leh, Beyond that Army aviation Dhruv and Cheetah operates ..

If MI 17 can carry 4000 KG at 6000 m then all our problems for Cheetah replacement have been solved specially for the Siachen sector.

 

[Zebra]

If MI 17 can carry 4000 KG at 6000 m then all our problems for Cheetah replacement have been solved specially for the Siachen sector.

Sir, please check it again.
The red color part.

It can take 4000 kg on external sling and it has operational ceiling of 6,000 m.

http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/civil/mi-817/features.html

I know what is your point.

But I just said it.

 

[Khagesh]

And how about Ammo for M-777.

Will that too be transported by Air.

 

[Bhadra]

And how about Ammo for M-777.

Will that too be transported by Air.

A gun without ammunition is just a "Danda" and not even that.... Nahin..

 

[brational]

How will you deploy them in Bumla (Arunachal) Gurudongmar (Sikkim)? Your Chinooks won't reach there. No airport, hence c-17 is out of question.

It is a photo of Chinook hauling a M777. Stupid website.

How many are we getting again?
Also, why can't they be air dropped by our transporters. Surely our fleet of C-_'s have those heavy cargo pallets.

 

[The enlightened]

How will you deploy them in Bumla (Arunachal) Gurudongmar (Sikkim)? Your Chinooks won't reach there. No airport, hence c-17 is out of question.

I'm sorry. A plane with 10000km range was ruled out how?
Is this a habit of the forumers here. Throwing out blind assertions without giving any thought.
Earlier @Bhadra claimed that it is not possible to air-drop in the NE. Still waiting for his detailed explanation.

 

[brational]

I'm sorry. A plane with 10000km range was ruled out how?
Is this a habit of the forumers here. Throwing out blind assertions without giving any thought.
Earlier @Bhadra claimed that it is not possible to air-drop in the NE. Still waiting for his detailed explanation.

You can airdrop anything, but the question is whether it serves your purpose? Do you have any idea about airdrops of Arty in High Altitude mountainous terrain (Above 4000m by Helicopters/Aircrafts)? It seems you don't. Everyone knows Chinooks can airlift heavy equipment but few know it's limitations in High Altitude.
For NE, you can deploy Chinooks as a heavy lifter in all NE states but you can not deploy it along Higher reaches of Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim.
What will you do with a plane of 10000 km range if it doesn't get a place to land? Hope you are not going to airdrop heavy equipment on mountains from an Aircraft.

If you are thoughtful enough, please answer my question rather than doing postmortem of the habits of forumers here through your enlightened logics.

 

[The enlightened]

You can airdrop anything, but the question is whether it serves your purpose? Do you have any idea about airdrops of Arty in High Altitude mountainous terrain (Above 4000m by Helicopters/Aircrafts)? It seems you don't. Everyone knows Chinooks can airlift heavy equipment but few know it's limitations in High Altitude.
For NE, you can deploy Chinooks as a heavy lifter in all NE states but you can not deploy it along Higher reaches of Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim.
What will you do with a plane of 10000 km range if it doesn't get a place to land? Hope you are not going to airdrop heavy equipment on mountains from an Aircraft.

If you are thoughtful enough, please answer my question rather than doing postmortem of the habits of forumers here through your enlightened logics.

Apparently you have much experience with Chinooks limitations in high altitude ops (as presumed from your statement 'few know it's limitations in High Altitude.') Do let us know of its payload capability of Chinook at 4000m. Do not let this distract you though.

As for heavy dropping on mountains, I'd refer to a guy who actually knows what he is talking about rather than all of yours 'really air-dropping on mountains, really?'

M777 Can be airdrop by C-17


And yes, C-17 can drop them in the Himalayas

Well, not being in Himalaya so I don't know much about how rugged it was, but when I was in the Airborne, we air dropped guns all the time on mountain all the time, and we do drop them when we are in Afghanistan, probably near the same condition than in the Himalayas, but then again, I don't really know.

But all in all, you don't drop the whole gun like it is, you drop them in 4 or 5 packed pieces and you need to assemble it once it is on the ground...

it will be a bit like this...

 

[brational]

There are two aspects in it. 1.What's the hovering altitude with Payloads 2. What is the service ceiling?
Your graph is good enough to understand the payload carrying capacity in different altitude but the question still remains unanswered.

If Chinook is so efficient in high altitude, why US deployed Mi-26 to recover another Chinook in Afghanistan?

Apparently you have much experience with Chinooks limitations in high altitude ops (as presumed from your statement 'few know it's limitations in High Altitude.') Do let us know of its payload capability of Chinook at 4000m. Do not let this distract you though.

As for heavy dropping on mountains, I'd refer to a guy who actually knows what he is talking about rather than all of yours 'really air-dropping on mountains, really?'

Please understand, we are not US. We don't attack other countries for fancy and show-off. We import equipment with limited stock of spares and parts.
It could be viable for US to drop arty parts on mountains from c-17s in Afghanistan(though your quote says he has no idea about Himalayas). For us, if a single part overshoots the intended point, our Artillery assemblers may end-up playing Ludo on high hills.
Please show me a single instance of dropping an Artillery unit(Knocked down condition) in India by an Aircraft in a mountainous area. This requires practice and years of experience. Merely showing what Americans do, does not give a solution.

 

[Khagesh]

You can airdrop anything, but the question is whether it serves your purpose? Do you have any idea about airdrops of Arty in High Altitude mountainous terrain (Above 4000m by Helicopters/Aircrafts)? It seems you don't. Everyone knows Chinooks can airlift heavy equipment but few know it's limitations in High Altitude.
For NE, you can deploy Chinooks as a heavy lifter in all NE states but you can not deploy it along Higher reaches of Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim.
What will you do with a plane of 10000 km range if it doesn't get a place to land? Hope you are not going to airdrop heavy equipment on mountains from an Aircraft.

If you are thoughtful enough, please answer my question rather than doing postmortem of the habits of forumers here through your enlightened logics.

I think they will be able to get it to land on the advance landing strips also. But then the Arty piece has to go from one Fire Support Base to another FSB (Airport hopping no good). Apart from the Arty on the FSB there are issues of crew and ammo also which need to be transported. If even one of the 4 preconditions are missing its no use. Equally importantly while these fancy guns can fire dumb shells but making them effective at those heights will require either really good range tables or guided shells, unless you plan on firing a lot of dumb shells at an obscure target on the reverse slope.

So now that we will have 145 pieces I suppose we will also need say 20/30 odd helos and then more C-17s and Excalibur rounds. Matlab bahu ke saath bahut bada maika bhi to milega babua ko.

I just wish the DRDO can mate the glide bomb kits to smaller bombs or to a heavier cluster arrangement and demo an An32 with a clutch of these with the ability to change trajectory 180 degrees to hit from multiple sides.

 

[blueblood]

How will you deploy them in Bumla (Arunachal) Gurudongmar (Sikkim)? Your Chinooks won't reach there. No airport, hence c-17 is out of question.

The distance between Bum La pass and nearest division HQ (Bomdilla, elevation 2217m ) is 226 km by road, less than hour's flight aboard a CH-47F.

The distance between Gurudongmar and nearest division HQ (Gangtok, elevation 1650m ) is 175 km by road, less than an hour's flight aboard a CH-47F.

For all that is being said and done in the last 2-3 pages, M777 is light howitzer capable of being airlifted. It is not the defacto mode of transportation.

As for the airdrop, you are deliberately and falsely creating a mental picture of this

when the reality is

Also Pakis airlifted their 105s in pieces by dismantling at Skardu and reassembling in the field. IAF airlifted LFGs during Kargil by Mi-8/17 without dismantling.

 

[brational]

The distance between Bum La pass and nearest division HQ (Bomdilla, elevation 2217m ) is 226 km by road, less than hour's flight aboard a CH-47F.

The distance between Gurudongmar and nearest division HQ (Gangtok, elevation 1650m ) is 175 km by road, less than an hour's flight aboard a CH-47F.

For all that is being said and done in the last 2-3 pages, M777 is light howitzer capable of being airlifted. It is not the defacto mode of transportation.

As for the airdrop, you are deliberately and falsely creating a mental picture of this

when the reality is

Also Pakis airlifted their 105s in pieces by dismantling at Skardu and reassembling in the field. IAF airlifted LFGs during Kargil by Mi-8/17 without dismantling.

So how many sorties will you ply to assemble a m777 considering Gurudongmar at 17200ft and Bumla at 14700 ft (considering fly pass far above the said altitude)

Bomdi-la is not a disvisional HQ. Probably it is Tenga. Another 50 km downhill towards tezpur.

 

[brational]

Bomdi-la is not a disvisional HQ. Probably it is Tenga. Another 50 km downhill towards tezpur.

@blueblood
Sorry! You are right. Bomdi-la is HQ of 5th Mountain.

 

[Ray]

Sir, The PARA units operate ZU-23 twin and these are carried via Dhruv and MI-17 helicopter ..

What is the tactical use of Zu 23 in a Para action?

I have not understood.

Ideally, then there should be integral artillery with the Infantry Bns since they always require artillery for assault? defence. But they get 'in direct support' artillery from the arty affiliated to the Brigade.

At that altitude their is no place for landing such an huge helicopter nor they can hover at low altitude, Their are places where helicopter cannot land but have to drop payload to troops down below ..

For such reasons MI-17 are used by Airforce and they are operational till leh, Beyond that Army aviation Dhruv and Cheetah operates ..

Mi 17 operates BEYOND Leh.

Almost everyday, 365 days a year, the MI-17s drop loads upto 6 to 8 tonnes at lower helipads on the glacier at heights of over 17,000 feet. The Cheetahs enter the picture when posts at heights of over 20,000 feet, many having an eyeball to eyeball contact with the Pakistanis, have to be serviced. Besides, there are the casualty evacuations, one a day on an average.
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/1980s-siachen-article01.html

also see
http://post.jagran.com/Worlds-highest-helipad-constructed-at-Siachen-for-MI17-helicopters-1312776990

 

[Ray]

I think they will be able to get it to land on the advance landing strips also. But then the Arty piece has to go from one Fire Support Base to another FSB (Airport hopping no good). Apart from the Arty on the FSB there are issues of crew and ammo also which need to be transported. If even one of the 4 preconditions are missing its no use. Equally importantly while these fancy guns can fire dumb shells but making them effective at those heights will require either really good range tables or guided shells, unless you plan on firing a lot of dumb shells at an obscure target on the reverse slope.

What exactly do you mean by - Arty piece has to go from one Fire Support Base to another FSB (Airport hopping no good)?

Not understood.

 

[Ray]

How will you deploy them in Bumla (Arunachal) Gurudongmar (Sikkim)? Your Chinooks won't reach there. No airport, hence c-17 is out of question.

I have been to Gurudongmar as it was my jurisdiction.

You have to be there to realise that C 17 can land. Service ceiling, 45,000 feet.

6666m is the highest feature out there.

Have not seen the Chinook or what will be the all up weight with the guns and its effect on flying, I will give it the go by,

 

[brational]

I have been to Gurudongmar as it was my jurisdiction.

You have to be there to realise that C 17 can land.

Sir, I've been there. But it is doubtful. C130 can land, much earthwork is needed. There are thousands of vehicle tracks but they are uneven. Again Mt. Sinolchu could be a hurdle.

 

[brational]

@Ray
Sirjee, these are clicked by me - Gurudongmar Area

 

[Bhadra]

@blueblood

Nice photographs of Bumla bowl ... anything on Assam Hill. but those are not gun areas but LAC and why should any one take guns there unless Indian Army is 20 km inside Tibet and they need fire support.