Indian Army Artillery

[Kunal Biswas]

PARA units have their own Artillery and AD which are heli-dropped, The practice is common in Indian Army ..

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-army-artillery.5115/page-70

This was posted not long ago, It seems you knew about this and asking same question back ..

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Go back in the thread,Authentic notes are posted here from Kargil War regarding the use of Guns including 105mm and Gunners success ..

Bofors rounds actually 1/4th of the total rounds fired over Kargil, The majority goes to 105mm guns

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The difference between Gun and Howitzers and its relation with Indian 105mm guns, Read and Learn >>

A howitzer /ˈhaʊw.ɪts.ər/ is a type of artillery piece characterized by a relatively short barrel and the use of comparatively small propellant charges to propel projectiles at relatively high trajectories, with a steep angle of descent, the howitzer stood between the "gun" (characterized by a longer barrel, larger propelling charges, smaller shells, higher velocities, and flatter trajectories) , Since World War II most of the artillery pieces adopted by land armies for attacking targets on land have combined the traditional characteristics of guns and howitzers—high muzzle velocity, long barrels, long range, multiple charges and maximum elevation angles greater than 45 degrees. The term "gun-howitzer" is sometimes used for these (e.g., in Russia); many nations use "howitzer" while the UK (and most members of The Commonwealth of Nations) calls them "guns", see, for example Gun, 105mm, Field, L118.

Indian 105mm IFG is "gun-howitzer" sharing properties of both Gun and Howitzer ..

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The reason you get infraction is because you trolled too much ..

@pmaitra

How many times 105 IFG has been helli-lifted ?
Weight is not the only criteria.

Even if helli-lifted with great efforts, what can this gun do in mountains? I hope the difference between gun and howitzers is understood? LFG has not had much of success.
I hope that the difference between 15Km and 42 km is also understood?
I further hope that the difference between 105 and 155 bomb is also understood?

M777 is there on ground and Baba is still in the air.
Baba's Gun is also a foreign mal - so why cry horse about it ?

I suggest these thing be decided by those who got to fight the war on ground rather than those who think they know more than the generals.

I suggest you check your facts correctly before playing a school master..

Para use a different pack howitzer 25 /75 and sometimes 25 ponders which are very light and are para dropped. Guns are not helli dropped but helli landed. Do not justify your ignorance like this.

And stop using haranguing tone as if you are know all. If any at all you troll most of the time in spite of being a moderator.

I also know that you have no courage to stand my replies and you will promptly delete it but keep your post like a loser.

 

[Ray]

On the Para artillery, lets clear the air.

Last that I know is that 105 was the artillery piece with the Para Bde. Before that, it was 75/24.

Guns are para/ heli dropped with cluster parachutes and also heli landed.

I have just got it confirmed from a Para Gen.

I am not too sure that they have their integral AD.

 

[Bhadra]

On the Para artillery, lets clear the air.

Last that I know is that 105 was the artillery piece with the Para Bde. Before that, it was 75/24.

Guns are para/ heli dropped with cluster parachutes and also heli landed.

I have just got it confirmed from a Para Gen.

I am not too sure that they have their integral AD.

Para is a different game altogether .. they may be using 105 for a drop etc during training but in the history of Para Brigade operations including at Tangail guns have never been dropped (correct me if I am wrong). India simply did not have so many helicopters / resorces.
For dropping a Gun with he help of para it has to inside the helicopter which to my mind no helicopter takes 105. It is externally slung and then landed. 75/24 is very small in size which can come inside the helicopter then para dropped.
But normal Indian Army artillery does not do that particularly in mountains not do they train for it.. it is not part of their tactics or doctrine. Showing the picture thus has no meaning.
There is no use incurring such heavy expenditure and taking a short range gun with minimum ammunition.

This wayward unnecessary diversion took place when 105 guns were shown being hell lifted to suggest IA does not need M777- 155 How and or 105mm would do the same job.

It has an air defence battery integral to it as per Wikipedia.

Rest all is story..

 

[Ray]

Para is a different game altogether .. they may be using 105 for a drop etc during training but in the history of Para Brigade operations including at Tangail guns have never been dropped (correct me if I am wrong). India simply did not have so many helicopters / resorces.
For dropping a Gun with he help of para it has to inside the helicopter which to my mind no helicopter takes 105. It is externally slung and then landed. 75/24 is very small in size which can come inside the helicopter then para dropped.
But normal Indian Army artillery does not do that particularly in mountains not do they train for it.. it is not part of their tactics or doctrine. Showing the picture thus has no meaning.
There is no use incurring such heavy expenditure and taking a short range gun with minimum ammunition.

This wayward unnecessary diversion took place when 105 guns were shown being hell lifted to suggest IA does not need M777- 155 How and or 105mm would do the same job.

It has an air defence battery integral to it as per Wikipedia.

Rest all is story..

Please revisit the Battle of Tangail

The Tangail airdrop was an airborne operation mounted by 2 PARA on 11 Dec. The battalion group included an artillery battery from 17 PARA FIELD REGIMENT, an Engineers detachment and logistics elements. The objective of the operation was to capture Poongli bridge on the Jamuna river which would cut off 93 BRIGADE of Pakistan army, which was retreating from the north to defend Dacca and its approaches.

The airdrop was successfully carried out at 4.30 p.m. on 11 Dec.
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1291_Indo-Pak_Bangladesh_liberation_war_1971.htm

India has Mi 26.

MI 26 can 85 combat-equipped troops, or two airborne infantry combat vehicles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-26#Indian_Air_Force_Mi-26_crash.

Now, if two airborne ICV can be carried, then why not the 105mm How?

Please give link to this Wikipedia which states there is AD resources with the Para Brigade. The SD5 which is the bible for organisation does not show so.

And what is the requirement

Once the paratroopers are on the ground, they will be on the move for the objectives. What is there for the AD to guard?

AD is used to protect strategic static installations, game changing resources that can be picked up for the air, like armoured formations and so on.

Infantry or para, that too dispersed is hardly a target for the air.

While 105mm can do the task, however it can fire upto 11,270 m (7.00 mi).

On the other hand, M777 howitzer has a range dependent on the shell used i.e. M107, ERFB, Excalibur

M107: 24 km (14.9 mi)
ERFB: 30km (18.6 mi) base bleed
Excalibur: 40km (25 mi)

 

[Bhadra]

In the 21st century the 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade comprises two parachute battalions, one special forces battalion, 60 Parachute Field Ambulance, 411 (Independent) Parachute Field Company (Bombay Sappers), 622 Parachute Composite Company ASC, 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade OFP (Ordnance), 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade Signal Company, 2 (Independent) Parachute Field Workshop Company, 1 parachute field regiment (Artillery) (9 & 17 parachute field regiments) and a provost section, an air defence battery. The President's Bodyguard also forms part of the brigade as the pathfinder company.

The three parachute battalions in rotation form part of the parachute brigade alternatingly serving their field tenures in counter-insurgency/high altitude areas. One of the eight SF battalions too serves in the brigade on rotation. One of the two field regiments (9 Para Field Regiment and 17 Para Field Regiment, Regiment of Artillery) also forms part of the brigade while the other serves out its field tenure on rotation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50th_Parachute_Brigade_(India)

Sir, MI-26 is of recent procurement . MI- 26 May carry a gun but that capability did not exist earlier. IAF has only three of those and what all will those carry. One of those has met with an accident. so two guns. Even if carried and dropped when will the FAT fetch up without a twer those are useless. 105 is not a self moving gun. It can not be packed like 75/24. so on drop it is a sitting duck on a DZ. Then what about ammunition?

For AD, dropping zone is the VA as the dropping zone become very crucial for subsequent waves and drops. Drpping Zone is most vulnerable from interference by enemy air. Though PARA SF have inherent capability of AD but they may or may not be part of the drop.

The point is not that. The point was the contention that can 105 Gun helli lifted in mountains meet the requirement of 155 Howitzers in our context.

Can a MI-17 carry a weight of 3500 kgs underslung and helli land that gun at an altitude of 4000m ?

Para dropping at those altitudes is out of question except may be Ladakh but not in East anywhere for which M777 is meant.

Sp, pray tell me who was trolling?.

 

[The enlightened]

In the 21st century the 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade comprises two parachute battalions, one special forces battalion, 60 Parachute Field Ambulance, 411 (Independent) Parachute Field Company (Bombay Sappers), 622 Parachute Composite Company ASC, 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade OFP (Ordnance), 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade Signal Company, 2 (Independent) Parachute Field Workshop Company, 1 parachute field regiment (Artillery) (9 & 17 parachute field regiments) and a provost section, an air defence battery. The President's Bodyguard also forms part of the brigade as the pathfinder company.

The three parachute battalions in rotation form part of the parachute brigade alternatingly serving their field tenures in counter-insurgency/high altitude areas. One of the eight SF battalions too serves in the brigade on rotation. One of the two field regiments (9 Para Field Regiment and 17 Para Field Regiment, Regiment of Artillery) also forms part of the brigade while the other serves out its field tenure on rotation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50th_Parachute_Brigade_(India)

Sir, MI-26 is of recent procurement . MI- 26 May carry a gun but that capability did not exist earlier. IAF has only three of those and what all will those carry. One of those has met with an accident. so two guns. Even if carried and dropped when will the FAT fetch up without a twer those are useless. 105 is not a self moving gun. It can not be packed like 75/24. so on drop it is a sitting duck on a DZ. Then what about ammunition?

For AD, dropping zone is the VA as the dropping zone become very crucial for subsequent waves and drops. Drpping Zone is most vulnerable from interference by enemy air. Though PARA SF have inherent capability of AD but they may or may not be part of the drop.

The point is not that. The point was the contention that can 105 Gun helli lifted in mountains meet the requirement of 155 Howitzers in our context.

Can a MI-17 carry a weight of 3500 kgs underslung and helli land that gun at an altitude of 4000m ?

Para dropping at those altitudes is out of question except may be Ladakh but not in East anywhere for which M777 is meant.

Sp, pray tell me who was trolling?.

4 Mi 26 were acquired and they are by no measure 'recent'.
At least IAF acquisitions point towards 'M777 drop' capability.

 

[Bhadra]

Ok four were acquired , so what? Are those sufficient to carry a regiment of artillery in high altitude areas of East with sufficient ammunition and vehicles?

Why I say regiment? because if such an action is taken it must have decisive impact. Carrying one or two gun has no meaning. We are not going to fight a Siachin battle there !

Second part of your assertion is not understood.

 

[The enlightened]

Ok four were acquired , so what? Are those sufficient to carry a regiment of artillery in high altitude areas of East with sufficient ammunition and vehicles?

Why I say regiment? because if such an action is taken it must have decisive impact. Carrying one or two gun has no meaning. We are not going to fight a Siachin battle there !

Second part of your assertion is not understood.

It is a photo of Chinook hauling a M777. Stupid website.

How many are we getting again?
Also, why can't they be air dropped by our transporters. Surely our fleet of C-_'s have those heavy cargo pallets.

 

[Bhadra]

Air drop in High altitude areas of NorhEast ??

I must be stupid not to think of that ! Why I think those then should not land up in Lhasa !!

 

[The enlightened]

Air drop in High altitude areas of NorhEast ??

I must be stupid not to think of that ! Why I think those then should not land up in Lhasa !!

Why don't you list out the technical barriers if they exist, instead of your vivid imagination.

 

[brational]

Lighter guns can be deployed with ease along northern borders. The simple reason is they can be carried/pulled by regular army trucks. I think the airdrop logic is invalid since most of the areas in north lies above 4000m altitude. If there is a road, Armed forces can carry them easily and quickly but same is not applicable to Big Guns.

Since the primary reason behind m777 selection is that they will be deployed in the northern border, one must keep in mind that Road network is equally necessary. Heavy Lifters (Helicopters) are irrelevant here.

 

[Ray]

In the 21st century the 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade comprises two parachute battalions, one special forces battalion, 60 Parachute Field Ambulance, 411 (Independent) Parachute Field Company (Bombay Sappers), 622 Parachute Composite Company ASC, 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade OFP (Ordnance), 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade Signal Company, 2 (Independent) Parachute Field Workshop Company, 1 parachute field regiment (Artillery) (9 & 17 parachute field regiments) and a provost section, an air defence battery. The President's Bodyguard also forms part of the brigade as the pathfinder company.

The three parachute battalions in rotation form part of the parachute brigade alternatingly serving their field tenures in counter-insurgency/high altitude areas. One of the eight SF battalions too serves in the brigade on rotation. One of the two field regiments (9 Para Field Regiment and 17 Para Field Regiment, Regiment of Artillery) also forms part of the brigade while the other serves out its field tenure on rotation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50th_Parachute_Brigade_(India)

Sir, MI-26 is of recent procurement . MI- 26 May carry a gun but that capability did not exist earlier. IAF has only three of those and what all will those carry. One of those has met with an accident. so two guns. Even if carried and dropped when will the FAT fetch up without a twer those are useless. 105 is not a self moving gun. It can not be packed like 75/24. so on drop it is a sitting duck on a DZ. Then what about ammunition?

For AD, dropping zone is the VA as the dropping zone become very crucial for subsequent waves and drops. Drpping Zone is most vulnerable from interference by enemy air. Though PARA SF have inherent capability of AD but they may or may not be part of the drop.

The point is not that. The point was the contention that can 105 Gun helli lifted in mountains meet the requirement of 155 Howitzers in our context.

Can a MI-17 carry a weight of 3500 kgs underslung and helli land that gun at an altitude of 4000m ?

Para dropping at those altitudes is out of question except may be Ladakh but not in East anywhere for which M777 is meant.

Sp, pray tell me who was trolling?.

In Tangail, the 17 PARA Field an integral part of the Para Bde was in the operation.

So, how did they reach there?

Surely, not cross country. for if that was so, what was the necessity? The nearest artillery unit could have done the task.

 

[Ray]

Ok four were acquired , so what? Are those sufficient to carry a regiment of artillery in high altitude areas of East with sufficient ammunition and vehicles?

Why I say regiment? because if such an action is taken it must have decisive impact. Carrying one or two gun has no meaning. We are not going to fight a Siachin battle there !

Second part of your assertion is not understood.

Is there any helicopter that can carry a Regiment of Artillery and the guns?

 

[Ray]

Lighter guns can be deployed with ease along northern borders. The simple reason is they can be carried/pulled by regular army trucks. I think the airdrop logic is invalid since most of the areas in north lies above 4000m altitude. If there is a road, Armed forces can carry them easily and quickly but same is not applicable to Big Guns.

Since the primary reason behind m777 selection is that they will be deployed in the northern border, one must keep in mind that Road network is equally necessary. Heavy Lifters (Helicopters) are irrelevant here.

Airlifting guns by helicopters is basically for replacement of guns rendered ineffective or damaged and replacing such guns by road would be time consuming and not meeting the operational timeframe.

The type of airdrop refers to the way that the airdrop load descends to the ground. There are three main types of airdrop, and each type may be performed via several methods.

• Low-Velocity Airdrop is the delivery of a load involving parachutes that are designed to slow down the load as much as possible to ensure it impacts the ground with minimal force. This type of airdrop is used for delicate equipment and larger items such as vehicles.
• High-Velocity Airdrop is the delivery of a load involving a parachute meant to stabilize its fall. The parachute will slow the load to some degree but not to the extent of a Low-Velocity airdrop as High-Velocity airdrops are used for durable items like MREs. LAPES (Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System) is a variation of an HV drop where the aircraft almost completes a touch-and-go type pattern (without actually touching the ground) and the load is ejected at an extremely low altitude. This is shown in the photo of the C-130 airdropping a tank.
• Free Fall Airdrop is an airdrop with no parachute at all. Common uses of this type of airdrop include the delivery of humanitarian aid supplies and leaflets used in psychological warfare.

he method of airdrop refers to the way the load leaves the aircraft. There are three main methods of airdrop currently used in military operations.

• Extraction airdrops use an extraction parachute to pull the load out of the aft end of the airplane. In this method, an extraction parachute is deployed behind the aircraft which pulls the load out and cargo parachutes are deployed to slow the load. Extraction drops are invariably Low-Velocity airdrops.
• Gravity airdrops use gravity in the sense that the attitude of the aircraft at the time of the drop causes the load to roll out of the plane like a sled down a hill. The most common use of a gravity airdrop is for the Container Delivery System (CDS) bundle.
• Door bundle drops are the simplest of airdrop methods. In a door bundle airdrop, the Loadmaster simply pushes out the load at the appropriate time.

Gravity airdrop of CDS bundles from a C-17.

Extraction airdropping a light tank.

 

[Bhadra]

Is there any helicopter that can carry a Regiment of Artillery and the guns?

Sir, I am only referring to numbers ... four Vs three, Vs two is the point in contention. If we have 100 helicopters they can carry a Regiments plus ammunition plus FAT .. Nahin..

The point in contention is MI-26.

 

[The enlightened]

Please enter a message with at least 50 characters.

 

[Ray]

Using helicopters to move arty regts will not be cost productive.

An airhead with Para Bde has to be made, then C17 will move the combat troops and the arty regts with its total combat complements.

These will carry out the task and the helicopters will only ferry the replacement for damaged or unserviceable equipment.

Mi 26 has not has good service record.

Serviceability of the Helicopter suffered in the 90s, at one point of time in 1995-96, as many as three of the four helicopters remaining on ground. Serviceability gradually fell in the mid 90s from a high of 61% down to 40%. The helicopters also remained underutilized. Against a projected utilization rate of 50 hours per month per helicopter, the average utilization hovered around 11 to 22 hours per month.

The first two Helicopters procured in 1986 were due for an overhaul in 1990. The two helicopters were ferried to Russia for overhaul in June 1991 and were returned in August 1993.

The fourth Helicopter came up for overhaul in October 1996 and was given an extension of an year after maintenance by the Base Repair Depot. However the helicopter suffered some damage after one of the undercarriage struts failed in August 1997. The damaged helicopter was subsequently overhauled by the manufacturer in January 2003 at a cost of Rs 16.8 Crores.

During the Kargil Operations, two Mi-26s logged about 25 hours airlifting heavy equipment and guns to the Kargil area.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/571-Mil-Mi-26.html

In Kargil, one Mi 26 got unserviceable for quite sometime.

 

[Zebra]

........

Can a MI-17 carry a weight of 3500 kgs underslung and helli land that gun at an altitude of 4000m ?

.............

It can take 4000 kg on external sling and it has operational ceiling of 6,000 m.

http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/civil/mi-817/features.html

 

[Bhadra]

In Tangail, the 17 PARA Field an integral part of the Para Bde was in the operation.

So, how did they reach there?

Surely, not cross country. for if that was so, what was the necessity? The nearest artillery unit could have done the task.

I did read the link provided by you and read that one battery of 17 Para fd was part of the operations..
However Strategic Para drop usually envisage a very early link up as the dropeed forces can not survive for more than a day. Secondly, it has to carried out against a very light opposition. That was the case with Tangail operation where a Para group was just to deny a bridge that is all. There was no attack on them and own forces linked up early. Once own forces link up , that is the end of their operations.

 

[Bhadra]

It can take 4000 kg on external sling and it has operational ceiling of 6,000 m.

http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/civil/mi-817/features.html

Sir, the weight carrying capacity keeps reducing as the height keeps increasing .. the figures you quoted do not mention at what height !