Classic Top Ten Tanks

asianobserve

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@ Damian # 76,

I have no objection to you symphatising with Armand for the inclusion of Lecrec on the list but I think that list only include tanks that are battle proven. Lecrec still has to prove its claims in sustained combat. The same with T64. As you said this is one of the revolutionary tanks of the Cold War mainly because of inclusion of auto loader and early composite protection but like the Lecrec this tank is also untested in combat.

If we follow your logic of including untested tanks then German Leo2 should be high on the list. But I agree with you that that Discovery list needs a more thorough research.

My 2 cents on the matter.
 
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Damian

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Leopard 2 was tested in combat conditions in the Balkans, and currently it have it's true baptism of fire in Afghanistan.

Leclerc was used in peace keeping operations in Balkans and in Lebanon.

T-64 was used in combat operations, here is more about this:

andrei_bt - Т-64БВ в бою

andrei_bt - Т-64БВ в боях за г. Бендеры

Only one T-64BW was completely lost as A. Tarasenko claims, but I rather recommend to read his articles with translator.
 

asianobserve

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I still beg to disagree. Leo 2's role in Afghanistan is mostly uneventful patrols and when they get to fire their main guns it is indirectly, and on human targets. This is not true MBT role. Leo 2 still has to be baptised in real classic MBT actions, MBT-to-MBT. Lecrec's peacekeeping duties in the Balkans is also nothing to rave about. It's even more boring than Leo 2's role in Afghanistan.

The Germans and French should send their finest MBTs to WW2, Arab-Israeli or Gulf War type of combats. But how can they test them when the governments of those countries are risk averse, holier than thou smugs? To me to be included in these top 10 type of rankings tanks should first be tested in sustained real MBT role battles for extended/multiple periods. This weeds out the real classic MBTs from the mediocre designs. Until then Leo 2 and Lecrec are only good on paper.

No disrespect intended.
 
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asianobserve

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T-64 only saw limited combats in Moldova and Chechen wars? It did not encounter real tank-to-tank combat. I think that's also nothing to rave about.
 

asianobserve

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Some notes I came across with on the subject of T-64 from Wikipedia, citing Perrett, Bryan (1987). Soviet Armour Since 1945. London: Blandford Press. ISBN 0-7137-1735-1:

Capabilities and Limitations

The T-64 did not share many drawbacks with the T-72, even if it is often confused with it:

* The automatic loader, hydraulic and not electric, is much faster (loading cycle of 6 to 13 seconds) and more reliable, and less sensitive to jolting when running off-road. It also has a "sequence" fire mode which feeds the gun with shells of the same type in less than 5 seconds. It is also able, in the modern versions, to turn backwards to keep a good speed at the end of the load.
* Driving seems much less exhausting for the crew, thanks to assisted controls and a more flexible suspension. (Perrett 1987:43)
* The ammunition is transported at the lower point of the turret shaft, minimizing the risks of destruction by self-detonation.
* Protection, excellent from the beginning and constantly updated, remains able to stop modern shells thanks to the reactive armor.
* The fire control on the B version is very modern.
* The tank leader's small turret has good sights, the AA machine gun can be operated from inside the turret; he can also control the gun sight in case of emergency.


The T-64 suffers from two usual weaknesses of Soviet tanks:

* Due to the low silhouette, the maximum gun depression angle is limited to -6°, preventing it from using fire positions on steep hill crests (firing "hull-down"), a disadvantage in defensive situations.
* The crew compartments are very small, precluding tall crew members and demanding the use of external storage for equipment. The limited interior space also makes long missions tiring.

Additionally, the adoption of the autoloader was highly controversial for several reasons:

* Early versions of the autoloader lacked safety features and were dangerous to the tank crews (especially the gunner, who sits nearby): Limbs could be easily caught in the machinery, leading to horrible injuries and deaths. A sleeve unknowingly snagged on one of the autoloader's moving parts could also drag a crewman into the apparatus upon firing. (Perrett 1987:42)
* The turret was poorly configured to allow the human crew to manually load the gun should the autoloader break. In such situations, rate of fire usually slowed to an abysmal one round per minute as the gunner fumbles with the awkward task of working around the broken machine to load the gun. (Perrett 1987:42)
* While having smaller tank crews (three vs. the usual four) is advantageous since more tanks can theoretically be fielded using the same number of soldiers, there are also serious downsides. Tanks require frequent maintenance and refueling, and much of this is physically demanding work that several people must work together to accomplish. Most of the time, these duties are also performed at the end of a long day of operations, when everyone in the tank is exhausted. Having one less crewman for these tasks increases the strain on the remaining three men and increases the frequency of botched or skipped maintenance. This problem worsens if the tank's commander is also an officer who must often perform other duties such as higher-level meetings, leaving only two men to attend to the tank. (Perrett 1987:42-43) All of this means that tanks with three-man crews are more likely to suffer from performance-degrading human exhaustion, and mechanical failures that take longer to fix and that keep the tank from reaching the battlefield. These problems are exacerbated during prolonged time periods of operations.
* The T-64 was criticized for being too mechanically complex, which resulted in a high breakdown rate. Problems were worst with the suspension system, which was of an entirely new and advanced design on the tank. Due to these problems, teams of civilian mechanics from the T-64 factories were "semi-permanent residents" of Soviet tank units early. (Perrett 1987:43-44)
 

Damian

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I still beg to disagree. Leo 2's role in Afghanistan is mostly uneventful patrols and when they get to fire their main guns it is indirectly, and on human targets. This is not true MBT role. Leo 2 still has to be baptised in real classic MBT actions, MBT-to-MBT. Lecrec's peacekeeping duties in the Balkans is also nothing to rave about. It's even more boring than Leo 2's role in Afghanistan.

The Germans and French should send their finest MBTs to WW2, Arab-Israeli or Gulf War type of combats. But how can they test them when the governments of those countries are risk averse, holier than thou smugs? To me to be included in these top 10 type of rankings tanks should first be tested in sustained real MBT role battles for extended/multiple periods. This weeds out the real classic MBTs from the mediocre designs. Until then Leo 2 and Lecrec are only good on paper.
Both were tested in combat conditions, MBT's are not only target for other MBT's, and it is not only one single term to evaluate combat effectiveness of vehicle.

No offence but such thinking is good only for these "specialists" in Discovery Channel Top Ten Tanks or other silly pseudo documentaries.

T-64 only saw limited combats in Moldova and Chechen wars? It did not encounter real tank-to-tank combat. I think that's also nothing to rave about.
Chechens were very good fighters, they even had tanks and other AFV's in their arsenal, we can safely assume that there were some small tank vs tank skirmishes, also both Chechen wars were very tough for Russians and their equipment.

Additionally, the adoption of the autoloader was highly controversial for several reasons:

* Early versions of the autoloader lacked safety features and were dangerous to the tank crews (especially the gunner, who sits nearby): Limbs could be easily caught in the machinery, leading to horrible injuries and deaths. A sleeve unknowingly snagged on one of the autoloader's moving parts could also drag a crewman into the apparatus upon firing. (Perrett 1987:42)
Myth from the cold war times, safety features were there from the start, if gunner or TC did not put their hands where they should not put them, everything was very safe.

* The T-64 was criticized for being too mechanically complex, which resulted in a high breakdown rate. Problems were worst with the suspension system, which was of an entirely new and advanced design on the tank. Due to these problems, teams of civilian mechanics from the T-64 factories were "semi-permanent residents" of Soviet tank units early. (Perrett 1987:43-44)
All soviet tanks from T-64 to T-90 are more mechanically complex than for example NATO tanks. T-64 had these problems mainly due to fact that it was a completely new, revolutionary design that have it's tetheening problems that were solved with time.
 

Damian

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I found on a TankNet interesting data about pressure in some modern tank guns.

2A26 & earlier 2A46 models: 5100 bar*
2A46M-1 tank gun and later models: 6500 bar*
Exp 32 M1 (became later British L30 tank gun): 6180 bar**
Rheinmetall Rh 120 L/44 (and US M256 tank gun): 7100 bar
Rheinmetall Rh 120 L/55 500 bar more than L/44 (7600 bar)
Morozov KBA3 tank gun: 6500 kgf/cm² (6374.3 bar)
Morozov KBM2 tank gun: 7200 kgf/cm²(7060 bar)
tank guns, face- off - Tanknet

Worth to read.
 

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