Kaveri Engine

Awesome. I ask for the CAG questions and HAL's answers, and you come up with one line in the entire article you gave as source. Google is not your friend is it?

Here's how you find the right info-

CAG's report summary-
Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - Times Of India

HAL's reply to Tarmak's interview-
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Saving the Dhruv: Top HAL official emails Tarmak007 in a response to CAG observations on ALH

This is how you find sources and give complete picture. Way better than your one line source and is barely even quoted. How's that for a Retarded Troll Bastard with chicken brain or something etc etc?

I won't be posting the article about the AL-31FP transfer as you don't have the right attitude to hold a discussion. It would be a waste of time to continue as well. Since now you have some tips on using Google, you can better look up answers to your questions. Since I found the CAG source for you, find the AL-31 source for yourself and be happy.

"AL-31FP India Deep ToT" and you will get your answer.

fine this is true but the engine is made from russian raw materials but not from raw materials sourced in india so if they stop the raw materials then no AL31 can be made it is not important that we can make it but it is important wheather we can make in india in the absence of russian help is what matters.

What do you expect? We have only a few hundred orders which aren't even concrete, even with LCH included. You think HAL will pay money for ToT with small orders. We cannot afford it. As of today we have enough ToT on Arriden enough to make operational changes, not enough to make the engine from scratch. This is more than enough.

I saw somewhere that 70% of the engine is made in india rest 30% of the ardiden is from france what ever u do u will never get tot for that thing even if u pay 5 billions design is for sale but not the matellurgical knowledge.
well even if france gives the design and the design knowledge what happens is without the right metal the engine has to compromise a lot of things like inlet temp,% of combustion etc now if u want to efficiently do that u need to do design changes since the material knowledge dosent allow the previous metallurgical properties now u gain weight and less life and less fuel efficient engine which will be a generation behind what it was before. hence getting tot without metallurgical knowledge is of no use...........so we are not able to move forward.

we can make design changes but we cannot get the desired materials out of no where this is what that desides the fate of the engine and this is where the foreigners turn their back.
due to this nonsence only we are not able to make so much progress with kaveri few years before it was 60kn now 75kn due to new alloys from midhani........this is why i asked in my first post on this thread cant we get the advanced russian alloys for kaveri ......this may really help kaveri very much.



Anybody is willing to deep transfer for the right price. The MKI project was over $12Billion while MRCA is set to be even higher. It makes economic and operational sense to go for ToT.


think we select typhoon we will get to make most of the engine including some core materials which may amount upto 80% in india but we will never get the rest 20% which is their bread and butter stuff that is for sure for what ever the price .......at the end of the day every country is for itself.

this post is almost correct since most of his points are told again and again by the people at HAL.

But ......but they have some devil contractual obligations one such thing is we have to purchase the tyres from them instead of manufacturing them in india.Though they have got the tot for radar we have to make it completely in india like engine and test it ..........since all the glitters is not the gold. The true test is not the lab knowledge ...it is seeing is beliving.

Brahmos seeker and propulsion tech is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from truth it is a myth and may remain like that did u hear S.pilli comments AS LONG AS THE RUSSIANS PROVIDE SEEKERS AND THE PROPULSION SYSTEMS ALL THE SHOTS ARE CALLED BY RUSSIANS.


for the brahmos2 hypersonic version it will be a joint effort{i read some timeago} so there will not be any problem with the tot.

HAL has not made any noise about ToT for Ardiden. There is no way of knowing if we are even looking for ToT in the first place.
There could be an indigenous development for more powerful engines as well. Full 100% manufacture may not even be required. So, you are comparing horses with oranges.

Even if the French haven't provided ToT on Ardiden, the Russians have done so for the AL-31FP. I have the entire thing in quote from the top exec from HAL. He says that everything will be made in India including raw materials. Raw materials were sourced from Russia until Phase III of the MKI production. The last 60 of the 190 to be produced were supposed to be 100% Indian goods and form Phase IV of the project. He also says the radar is also 100% indigenous being made in Hyderabad with parts sourced from the local industry.

If someone asks nicely I can post it.

The Germans or the British top exec, I forgot which of them, gave an interview last year about the EF-2000. Even they claim the Russians have started transfer of the Single Crystal Blades of the AL-31FP and that the EF consortium is also ready for full 100% transfer of the same to India for the EJ-200 along with being a partner nation in the EF project. According to his own words, the EJ-200 transfer would be better since it is a generation ahead of the AL-31FP.

If they are ready to transfer the SCB tech, then there is nothing to worry about. This is pretty much the most important piece of the puzzle apart from other hot components. Considering we are going for the M-88-3 on Kaveri they will provide ToT according to whatever deal we may have signed with them. We don't need their metal, the right word should be alloy. We can copy the same when it comes with ToT. We are already doing the same for AL-31FPs SCB.

If we choose the EF-2000, then we will have full ToT for the EJ-200. We will have full ToT for the K-10 core that will come from the French Indian JV. We already have ToT for Al-31FP and may go for 117S as well, maybe. I hope we go for an engine upgrade for MKI. We will be getting full ToT for AL-XX, the new engine for FGFA as well. All these are pretty much guaranteed if all parties hold their end of the deal together.

FORCE October 2009
FORCE-A Complete News Magazine on National Security-Defence Magazine,Indian Defence,AERO India 2011 Bangalore Bengaluru,magazine on Indian navy,Indian Army,Indian Air Force,Indian Paramilitary forces,Naxalism,Jammu & Kashmir,terrorism,national securi

‘Outsourcing is a Reasonably New Area for Us’
General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Nasik, V. Balakrishnan

Can you give us an overview of the Su-30MKI manufacturing process in Nasik?

The contract for Su-30 was first signed in 1996 with Russia. Subsequently, there were talks about license production, which is when HAL came into the picture. HAL has been in dialogue with Russia since 1998. In 2000, the Inter-Government Agreement and general contract was signed. In December 2001, the bifurcation of responsibilities between the Indian and the Russian side took place, implying that both sides decided on the documents that would be given to us, which side would do how much tooling and testing and so on. HAL also decided on the minimum number of aircraft needed to be made by it to have a cost-effective production line. Various figures were discussed and till we finally agreed on an appropriate number. Consequently, in March 2002, HAL submitted its project report to the government.



What is meant by establishing the Su-30MKI production line?

Five HAL factories were nominated for the Su-30MKI production. In Nasik, we make the airframe structure and all electrical items and various assemblies made elsewhere are brought here for final integration of the aircraft.After this, flight-testing is done here before the aircraft is given to the customer. At the Koraput HAL plant, we make the AL-31FP engines for the aircraft. In Hyderabad, HAL makes the radar and radio equipment. In Lucknow, all systems are made, which includes mechanical and electrical instruments (looms), as well as pumps and oxygen systems. The Navigational and Attack Complex, Korwa, HAL makes all navigational systems, which includes optical laser systems. Hence, the Nasik factory with the strength of about 5,500 people does the design and manufacturing. In addition, there are about 30 Russian consultants. The Nasik HAL comprises three divisions: the Aircraft Manufacturing Division (AMD), the Aircraft Overhauling Division (AOD) and Aircraft Upgrades Research and Development Centre (AURDC).

What is meant by designing Su-30MKI here?

As the aircraft is the licensed-production, we have to maintain the documentation including designs, drawing and specifications. Liaison work is also important as both sides have to agree on the exact specification of parts which are being made here.

Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?

Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on. These parts, though small are not economical enough to be made here. While in the earlier Russian aircraft, we were making nuts and bolts here, in the case of Su-30MKI, the Russians insisted that everything come from there, including readymade articles for which license has not been transferred. These include undercarriage and the ejection seats. This decision is based on cost-effective analysis and time frames. But there are still nearly 40,000 parts like brackets, panels and major structural frames, spars, longerons, wings, control surfaces and fins that are made here.

Where exactly are the Russians assisting in the project?

They come in at various stages of the project. For example, they help during the testing of the fuel pumps, radars and the final flight testing. Su-30MKI has seven profiles for system testing where the Russians are involved intimately. Painting of the aircraft done at the flight hangar is another critical area. They are also there during the final assembly of the aircraft as well in the earlier stages when sub-assemblies are manufactured. In short, the Russians are there in a supervisory capacity at each stage, for transfer of technology. This is part of the license agreement and is called ‘defence of their technology processes’. This means that it is their responsibility to ensure that all the licensed items that they have transferred to us can be produced here to the required specifications.

Does the radar come directly from Russia?

No, initially N011 radar of Su-30MKI used to come from Russia, but once the license was transferred to HAL, it is now being manufactured in Hyderabad. Like the aircraft, the manufacture of the radar is also a phased process.

Can you explain the phases in which the aircraft is being manufactured?

The whole process of the aircraft manufacture is in four phases. In phase I (2004-2005) the aircraft was manufactured and tested in Russia before being flown to India. It was again tested here in Nasik and then painted before the aircraft was handed over to the Indian Air Force. In phase II (2005-2006) 100 per cent of the kits came from Russia. In Nasik AMD, it meant the kits for the entire fuselage, wings and the pipelines. Assembling the kits here took nine months before the aircraft rolled out of the production line. Phase III of the process involved making all items from raw materials except the fuselage. The materials manufactured here included the empennage, canards, wings and the air intake. These were manufactured under Russian supervision and the process took 30 months. The fuselage that came from Russia was in three parts: F1, F2 and F3 or the front, centre and rear fuselage. These parts were assembled here. Phase IV, which has just begun, will take a total of 36 months and will involve making the entire fuselage from the Russian supplied raw material. Indian manufacturers for raw material, like Midhani, can make some of the raw material to required specifications. Present contract for the Su-30MKI aircraft mentions raw material to be delivered by Russia and we will stick to the license agreement terms. Indigenous material will be used for making spares.

As the phases become time-consuming, will this affect the aircraft production rate?

No, this will not happen. For example, phase III which we entered in March this year was actually started in 2006. We are certain to meet our commitment of giving 140 aircraft to the customer by March 2015.

What are the technical highpoints of Su-30MKI?

Su-30MKI is a 4.5 generation aircraft with a twin engine and twin cockpit. This ensures that redundancy is taken care of. It has 12 weapon stations, which is a large number. It has a state of art engine with thrust vectoring capability. This makes the aircraft highly unstable with immense manoeuvre-capabilities. It has a high fuel-carrying capability and can undertake air to air refuelling. Its fuel tank design is special and is self-sealing. This means that if a bullet hits the wing, the fuel will come out of the tank slowly, instead of gushing out as is the case in other aircraft. The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time. Another thing about the aircraft is the extensive use of titanium for machining, forming, welding and chemical milling. Titanium is both light and strong as compared with aluminium used in the earlier Russian aircraft. Absorption of the Titanium technology is a complex process. Most of the work on titanium is done at high temperature to stabilise the metal and this process is called isothermal forming. There is a need for special tools and jigs for the cutting, welding and machining of titanium.

Another unique feature of this aircraft manufacture is its rotables. It has sturdy locks, made of titanium, which are very complex. For example, when the undercarriage of the aircraft comes down, it is held firmly by down-locks which are manufactured here. Similarly, there are certain hydro-pneumatic valves which are complicated and are made here. The spars (members that hold heavy loads like wings) in this aircraft are huge and are complex structures to make.
A very interesting aspect of this aircraft-building is that nearly 25 per cent of the aircraft components have been outsourced by us. About 10,000 parts of the aircraft are being made by Indian companies and are being supplied to HAL Nasik. We give them the raw material and the designs, after which we inspect their products before accepting them. In a matter of speaking, we ensure quality control of the outsourced components. This helps us to concentrate on the assembly aspect of the parts here at AMD, which is a very critical process. As mentioned earlier, both we and the Russians, ensure the quality control of the manufacturing here.

Considering that the aircraft uses a lot of titanium, does this affect its stealth capabilities?

Stealth is a different issue altogether. This involves two things. First, the rays that come to the aircraft should get deflected so as not to send the signal back to the source. This is achieved by the geometry of the aircraft which ensures maximum deflection and hence stealth. The other issue is about the aircraft radar itself that should not emit unnecessary signals. Both these issues have been taken care of adequately in this aircraft.

What is the reason that in a given time frame, more aircraft can be made in Russia than at HAL?

This depends upon the number of machinery, jigs and fixtures that one has. The other aspect is about technology absorption. Considering that the Russians have been making aircraft of various kinds for so many years, their infrastructure, facilities and technology absorption processes are better than what can be achieved at HAL. For example, if the Russians are making about 1,400 aircraft and HAL is to make much lesser number in 100s, the disparity in infrastructure between the two places will be glaring. Moreover, given their experience, they have more partners to outsource work. As much as 70 per cent of their aircraft components would be outsourced in comparison to about 25 per cent that HAL is doing for the Su-30MKI. Earlier, HAL used to make 100 per cent components for the MiGs. Thus, outsourcing is a reasonably new area for us.

Which other companies are contributing components to Su-30MKI?

Thales of France has given the multi-functional display and stand-by instruments like the visual omni-range instrument landing system. The GPS in the aircraft comes from Israel. The radar warning receiver has been designed by DARE in Bangalore and is being produced by BEL. These systems are being sent to Korwa HAL from where we receive them.

credit : Austin of Key Pub

Indian Developments in Materials for Military Aero Engines - Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion

Every one learns by sharing please go on and share it...............

Sridhar things changed as of 2010. Phase IV entails full indigenization of the MKI including manufacture of raw materials in India.

Full ToT of the MKI was completed in 2010 and the first locally produced engine was manufactured and tested. The first inductions of the MKI with local components is set to happen this year, if it hasn't already been done.

But your article does show SCB manufacturing process has been transferred.

kaveri first phase trials are completed.......link
Kaveri engine completes tests in Russia News

The official, who has not been identified by the committee in its report, gave the example of the recent Indo-US deal for supply of 10 Boeing C-17s to Indian Air Force (IAF), under which India’s premier military research agency Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) will get high altitude engine test facility and a wind tunnel facility, both firsts in the country.

Defence sector to gain from $30 billion inflow | idrw.org

From Tech focus july


Major milestones in the indigenous development of fighter aircraft engine were
achieved with the completion of Official Altitude Testing (OAT)of Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine
for simulated operating conditions.

Subsequently, test flights of Kaveri engine were successfully carried out on a Flying
TestBed (FTB) proving the technological capability and maturity of the indigenous efforts.
This is for thefirst time that an indigenously developed gas turbineengine for fighter
aircraft has been flown on a FTB.

DRDO has developed expertise in the field of testingand certification for various
components, subsystems,and systems as well as complete airborneplatforms. Thus, Initial
Operational Clearance of bothLCA and Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) MK–III were the major
activities in this area.

Technology developed for vacuum investment casting of gas turbine blades for Kaveri engine
was extended for making high pressure turbine blades for land-based gas turbine for power
generation.

I think kaveri can be put to good use in the current configuration by

If kaveri can run on biofuel and alcohol blend it wll be a good thing since they are renewable they should certify for such things since alcohols {mixture of many} can be easily produced at industrial scale.

The exhaust of the engine can be tapped for electric production by heating water{ being donde by GE},utilizing the steam to power turbines and we can also use this hot water for desalination of water.

well it the time for varients and pay back time for the investment on kaveri since they can manufacture cheap versions of the engine by replacing aeroengine grade materials can bring good funds for GTRE. GE is in fierce competition for engines for locomotives for indian railways kaveri or laghushakthi shoulld be utilized for this purpose. Laghu shakthi may be very well suited for developing cities for power,clean water and economic sense.

well it has been announced what i was expecting in my above two comments

posting the full article

Railways keen on using Kaveri engines developed by DRDO: Parliamentary Committee

NEW DELHI: The Indian Railways has shown keen interest in the Kaveri engine, which is being developed for fighter aircraft, to power its trains, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has told a Parliamentary Committee.

"A request has come from the Indian Railways to know that whether Kaveri engines can be used for powering locomotives," DRDO told the Standing Committee on Defence.

In its report tabled in Parliament last week, the Committee said the DRDO has plans of producing Kaveri engine in large number in collaboration with Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL).

DRDO officials told PTI that the Railways were showing keen interest in the programme as gas-turbine engines were the best and most fuel efficient.

"Though the engine is being developed for fighter aircraft, it can also be used on other platforms such as ships and heavy vehicles," they said.

Kaveri engine is being developed for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and for the future ventures of the DRDO in the field of aeronautics at its Bangalore-based lab Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GRTE).

The engine recently successfully completed its first test-bed flight test in Russia and has completed other stages of development, including component testing, safety tests, ground based and endurance tests.

The engine has been put through a series of more such tests both in Russia and GTRE facility to prove its reliability, airworthiness and safety.

In the last two decades, DRDO has has spent close to USD 455 million on development of the Kaveri engine.

The indigenous fighter aircraft engine programme was first started in 1986 but suffered delays and cost over-runs due to the technology denial regimes in the 90s.


link :Railways keen on using Kaveri engines developed by DRDO: Parliamentary Committee - The Economic Times

great god speed the work on kaveri and kick out the GE as early as possible

since the dry thrust of kaveri is nearly on par with those of foreign engines of similar class,nearly on par with the fuel efficiency and being much cheaper and being made in desh will make it best suitable for our needs. I think GTRE should grab the oppourtunity with both hands and do the needful at the earliest............

who is the boss of GTRE now? can anybody confirm that the previous boss of GTRE was caught in a situation unbecoming of his position in a massage parlour and was exposed by a Bengaluru based TV channel? Later he was quietly transfered to another organization?Is there any truth in this ?

It is true that he was caught in a massage parlor but he claimed he was there for buying ayurvedic medicines for his wife! Either way high exams like frustration in GTRE must have drove him to vent out his frustration in sex. All highly becoming individuals do unbecoming things, that is not wrong as long he delivers in the professional arena.