ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Decklander]

@Rahul Singh, Myself and Maolankar are from same squadron from NDA that is Delta sqn and also same service and also same sqn again in Navy. He is 66Th course and I am 70th course NDA. This is just for your information.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That is a good design in mind, lets see how MK2 preform..

What you have stated now is what is the truth about LCA. It is a wastage of a great design. I will still not support a twin engined version. I wud rather go for 108KN version of F414INS6 and add 0.6 m each ahead of nose, behind cockpit and behind wings. The additional volume ahead of the nose will help installation of bigger AESA and OSF, the volume behind cockpit will help increase internal fuel volume plus allow a far better CFT configuration. The extension of fuselage behind wing TE will help keep the C of G aft while allowing for two additional pylons in the main fuselage.The MTOW must be increased to atleast 17 tons. The addition of 1.8 meter length will take the empty weight to about seven tons, internal fuel of 3 tons and weapon load of 7 tons. at full load you will still have a wingloading of less than 500kgs/sq m.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

American company PR models and imaginations..

But that has nothing to do with this thread..

What is Sixth Generation Fighter?

Seems like people are eating too much into JSF looser Boeing had to feed about.

 

[ersakthivel]

The Tejas mk-2 will have the same performance of Grippen _NG or E/F.

SO it can easily take on the J-10/F-16 and various other chinese twin engined Sukhoi- clones, when it comes to the defence of Indian skies.It frees other costly assets of Sukhoi-30 MKI and RAFALE to take on their strike roles. It is the near future threat perception scenario faced y India.When Chimese induct J-20 and J-31 in large numbers , nothing precludes us from inducting large number of FGFA and AMCA versions to conter them,

Saying that chinese are going to induct J-20 and tejas mk-2 won't be capable against them is far from truth. By the time chinese induct the J-20 with all the bells and whistles of a true 5th gens somewhere in 2020 in large numbers, Tejas mk-2 defending squadrons can take the assistance of home grown AUARs fitted with detection techs(which would surely have evolved by then to detect the 5th gen,) and having a FGFA among them in 1 FGFA:4 Tejas mk-2 mix to counter them.

Chinese are still making and inducting J-10s , and various sukhoi clones in full swing. As long as these 4th gen fighters serve in the PLAF we can use tejas mk-2 to counter them.

Chinese are not going to push them all in one go into the south china sea once they induct the J-20/31.RAFALEs and Eurofighters and F-18s and J-10Bs and J-11 s are still being produced in full stream all across the world. SO it is pointlesss to ague that LCA alone is obsolete among them.

5th gen stealths carry too little payload in thier tru stealth mode as of now. So for the foreseeable future major airforces around the world will have more than 50 percent of their fighter force in 4.5th gen profile for load carrying capacity.This situation will remain till the 2040.Enough time for tejas mk-2 to deliver it's worth.

Another important point is tejas mk-2 is primarily developed to cater for the Indian navy's needs. Otherwise tejas mk-1 is good enough to do duty in IAF from today itself.There is a false impression that Tejas mk-1 is underpowered , and failed to meet the original IAF needs and mk-2 is being developed to remedy this.

Truth is exact opposite.

this is what the original ASR from the horse's mouth.

http://tejas.gov.in/featured_articles/air_marshal_msd_wollen/page02.html

Space constraints prevent any meaningful description of materials, technology, facilities, processes developed for execution of the project. Military aviation enthusiasts may read a monograph on Aeronautical Technology that has attained maturity through DRDO efforts; much of this technology finds application in the LCA project. The monograph was brought out at Aero India 1998. The LCA is tailless with a double-sweep delta wing. Its wing span is 8.2 m, length 13.2 m, height 4.4 m. TOW clean 8.500 kg, MTOW 12500kg. It will be super-sonic at all altitudes, max speed of M 1.5 at the tropopause. Specific excess power and g-over load data has not been published. Maximum sustained rate of turn will be 17 deg per sec and maximum attainable 30 deg per sec. Funds have been sanctioned for a Naval LCA. PD and studies in critical technology areas have commenced. The aircraft will be powered by a Kaveri engine (more information follows) and is to operate from the Indian Navy's Air Defence Ship, under construction. Launch speed over a 12 deg ramp is 100 kts; recovery speed during a no flare deck landing, using arrester gear, is 120 kts. Take off mass 13 tonne, recovery mass 10 tonne. Most stringent requirements are that the airframe will be modified: nose droop to provide improved view during landing approach; wing leading edge vortexes (LEVCON) to increase lift during approach and strengthened undercarriage. Nose wheel steering will be powered for deck maneuverability.

Topsped of the original ASR is 1.5 mach STR 17 deg . Both have been exceeded by tejas mk-1 within it's partially opened capabilities for IOC. I don't know whether there is another revised ASR from IAF which Tejas mk-1 failed to meet.

Tejas mk-1 sigificantly exceeeds the original ASR set by IAF in the 1986.Because the navy wanted a higher powered version for carrier duty the mk-2 is being developed. SO considering he improvement in performance to Grippen NG or E/F level IAF too decided to back it.

Otherwise the present Tejs mk-1 is no pushover in south Asian skies. With reliable american engines and 120 km range detection and tracking radar along with lowest RCS among it's asian peers , coupled with exceptional handling abilities it sits above the 80 percent of the fighters that comprise the IAF , PAF, PLAF fleet of obsolete to near obsolete fighters belonging to 3rd generation and below.

In the debate about DBO occupation by PLA in ladakh a blurb says that china can throw 21 squadrons of fighters against IAF. Tejas mk-1 alone will be more than capable of taking them on in a fighter group comprising SuKHOI-30 MKI and other EW fighters with ease.Thsi combined fighter tactics are being validated by IAF in the recently held Red flag exercise when IAF used Su-30 MKI in a group with Su-30 MKI.I

J-10 cannot take off with full loads in high himalayan conditions and manuever as good as mk-1 because it has a high wing loading and lower TWR than mk-1 tejas.

The range is not a problem. As the primary duty of the IAf tejas mk-1 is to oerate within it's range in the defencs of the indian skies.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I wont like to talk about others air crafts, though true said..

MK1, Can provide effective air defense with effective CAS duties with Laser Guided Bombs..

It has a unique advantage of short landing and take off capability,

Only Tejas MK1 & MIG-29 can preform this with Multi-role capability..

The range is not a problem. As the primary duty of the IAf tejas mk-1 is to oerate within it's range in the defencs of the indian skies.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Sure, post away.

He says N LCA will be very good as career air defense fighter, that's suffice for the matter.

It isn't a competitor for JSF. It is a replacement program for Super Hornet.

Boeing unveils updated F/A-XX sixth-gen fighter concept

Don't make Dahi. Everybody knows why Boeing is peddling Sixth Generation Fighter concept and especially since when? And no F-35 or JSF is replacement of Super Hornet not some unknown SGFA.

 

[Rahul Singh]

@Rahul Singh, Myself and Maolankar are from same squadron from NDA that is Delta sqn and also same service and also same sqn again in Navy. He is 66Th course and I am 70th course NDA. This is just for your information.

I don't doubt a bit but what he or team N LCA feels about N LCA is widely known. How can i not trust words spoken to my face?

Anyway, Sir, i am fully aware of light fighter's limitation over carrier but i am hopeful of seeing LCA replicating performance A-4 Skyhawk till NAMCA arrives. Atleast experience gained from N LCA program is a gain gain in all.

 

[p2prada]

He says N LCA will be very good as career air defense fighter, that's suffice for the matter.

That's not enough.

Don't make Dahi. Everybody knows why Boeing is peddling Sixth Generation Fighter concept and especially since when? And no F-35 or JSF is replacement of Super Hornet not some unknown SGFA.

The F/A-XX has NOTHING to do with JSF.

F-35 is NOT a replacement for SH either. JSF is meant to replace only Harriers, F-16 and F/A-18 Hornet.

The only aircraft Boeing claimed will be a competitor to the JSF is SH Block 3, not F/A-XX.

Gee, just do the math. There are some 500 F/A-18 C/D Hornets in operation apart from another 500+ F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets. The Navy is ordering some ~450 F-35Cs to directly replace the F/A-18 C/D Hornets while the Boeing F/A-XX will replace the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets with an equal number of orders. That is the plan. That was always the plan.

People are confused about this but here goes. This should clear it out.
Navy Looks for New Jet, on Top of Its Trillion-Dollar Model | Danger Room | Wired.com

But the Son of the Super Hornet, the Navy's survey swears, isn't supposed to be a backup in case the JSF fails. Instead, it will be a "complementary "¦ asset to the F-35C and an unmanned persistent intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) vehicle with precision strike capability." In other words, it'll fly in a carrier air wing alongside the JSF and the Navy's future carrier-based drone, currently known as the X-47B.

"We are an all-F-18 fleet today," Morley tells Danger Room. "In that 2020-2030 time frame, those decades, we intend to be a Super Hornet-JSF fleet. And then those Super Hornets are going to be aging out, those earlier ones, and we need to be a JSF-and-something-else fleet.

You see where they are going. There is more in the article. So no need to club F-35 with this new aircraft. More importantly the article is old and outdated. So things have progressed beyond that.

 

[bhramos]

[video=youtube_share;gqN5xsY9AXw]http://youtu.be/gqN5xsY9AXw[/video]

 

[wild goose]

Making of Super Tejas (MK-2) | idrw.org

 

[ersakthivel]

Making of Super Tejas (MK-2) | idrw.org

So it proves everything said about the reason behind the development of tejas mk-2,like

The mk-1 alone has exceeded the original ASR, Because the navy wanted a much powerful carrier variant IAF also joined the effort, which is commonsense afterall,

Now people claiming that mk-1 failed to meet the original ASR and that was why mk-2 was developed have a lot on their hands to prove their arguments.

 

[Austin]

Better Late Than Never?
Tejas continues to fall behind revised schedules, causing inconvenience to the IAF and the Navy

By Atul Chandra

FORCE May 2013

The long delayed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) achieved a milestone in March, when the last Limited Series Production aircraft (LSP-8) took to the air. The maiden flight of LSP-8 was of particular significance as it is supposed to be in almost the exact configuration as that of Series Production (SP) Tejas fighters. LSP-8 aircraft along with LSP-7 will now be used by the Indian Air Force for User Evaluation Trials (UET).

Surprisingly, LSP aircraft will remain as only a test aircraft with the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) for the SP aircraft (now just a year away) still seeing changes. LSP-8 is the 13 Tejas aircraft to take to the air in 12 years! On another note, the Mig-21 which the Tejas was designed to replace celebrated 50 years of service in the IAF last month!

Defence minister A.K. Antony has already expressed his displeasure with delays in the Tejas programme and stating that the date for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) must not be extended beyond 2014. Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne has already said that with the maximum drawdown of IAF combat squadrons taking place in the 12th plan (2012-2017), it was of critical importance that two squadrons of Tejas be inducted (to maintain force levels at 34 squadrons). At present six squadrons of the LCA are scheduled to be inducted by the end of the 13th plan. The first four aircraft for the IAF were to have been ready by end 2011 and will now happen only by next year.

Orders for 20 Tejas fighters in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration and another of 20 in FOC configuration have been placed by the IAF. IOC-2 would be attained by next month (according to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited chief R.K. Tyagi). It is also looking to ramp up production capabilities from eight to 16 aircraft per year. IOC-1 was granted in January 2011, with a reluctant IAF agreeing to a number of concessions at the time. Wake Penetration Tests (verification of the robustness of Air Data System, Air Data Transducers and FCS against wake of another aircraft), all weather clearance which required lightening tests all had to be completed among many other parameters.

IOC configured LCA's will have capability to carry the R-73 Close Combat Missile (CCM) integrated with Elbit Systems DASH-3 Helmet Mounted Display Sight (HMDS). It will also be able to carry a LITENING target designator pod enabling Precision Guided Munitions (PGM) to be dropped. In FOC configuration, Tejas will have the Israeli, Rafael Derby Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile (BVRAAM) and the Rafael Python 5 Infra Red (IR) Close Combat Missile (CCM) as its primary air-to-air armament. Both missiles will also be carried on the Tejas Navy (Indian Navy already uses the Derby on Sea Harrier LUSH fighters). Tejas will also be fitted with the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) developed Astra BVRAAM. DRDO has declared 2013 as 'Astra Year' and will move on to the all important flight trials. Reports suggest that at least eight flight tests will be conducted this year and IAF user trials are slated for next year. The Astra will offer Off-Bore-Sight launch capability of up to 45 degrees.

The maximum delay will be faced by the Indian Navy (IN), adding insult to its injury. It was the IN which committed funds (approximately Rs 400 crore for the development phase) in 2003 for the navy variant at a time when the IAF had not invested even a single rupee on the programme for its Mig-21 replacement! The IN wanted the LCA Navy to obtain IOC by 2014, this is nowhere in sight and NP-2 is still to fly. Once orders are placed for the Navy LSP aircraft it will take HAL a lead time of three years to begin production. From the Mk-1 version to the MK-2 for the LCA Navy it is expected to take a decade. Developmental testing for the Mk-1 variant alone is expected to take at least till 2018 (for FOC). Another concern is the small number of aircraft available for test flying, while the IAF has 13 (including LSP versions), the Navy will have only two prototypes available. The IN has a stated goal of being a 'Builders Navy' and remains the most committed among the three Services to indigenisation, reflected in their backing and commitment to the LCA Navy (in spite of slippages). However, the solution for the IN if insurmountable delays crop up would be to go in for an imported and very expensive option, the Rafale!

Maintaining timelines has not been a strong point of the LCA programme

Status​

Scheduled​

Realistic​

Induction of Tejas Series Production Aircraft​

July 2011​

2014​

Completion of Full Scale Engineering
Development (FSED) Phase-II of LCA​

December 2008​

2015​

FOC for Tejas Mk-1 Variant​

2012​

2015​

FOC for Tejas trainer variant​

2011​

2016​

Delivery of all 40 Tejas Mk-1 aircraft to IAF​

2015​

2020​

Tejas Mk-2 first flight​

December 2014​

2017​

Tejas Mk-2 Series Production​

June 2016​

2021-2022​

LCA Mk-1 Navy IOC​

2014​

2016​

LCA Mk-2 Navy IOC​

NA​

2021​

 

[Francisco Dake]

hello everyone!

 

[Defenceindia2010]

hello everyone!

Welcome

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Force related articles are always anti-DRDO or anything made in India ..

 

[Uriel Correa]

@ersakthivel, I dont think its the powerplant or avionics which is falling short for maintaining a sustainable turn rate as warranted by the IAF, plus no other modern comparable jets have a pure delta form, either they are tailed or got canards, and in the performance scale I would rate a pure delta just as a beauty in simplicity not as an engineering marvel. While we should strive for the later.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That is because Tejas feature not a Simple Delta Wing design such as for Mirage or others, Its design specifically as per need STOL and other applications..

If you read more of his comments you will find all the details you are looking for..

=======================

About WVR combat Tejas are supplemented with DASH HMD with 90 degree off-bore view and Archer 60 degree off-bore R-73 missiles, It lethal battle wining package for tejas..

ersakthivel, I dont think its the powerplant or avionics which is falling short for maintaining a sustainable turn rate as warranted by the IAF, plus no other modern comparable jets have a pure delta form, either they are tailed or got canards, and in the performance scale I would rate a pure delta just as a beauty in simplicity not as an engineering marvel. While we should strive for the later.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, I dont think its the powerplant or avionics which is falling short for maintaining a sustainable turn rate as warranted by the IAF, plus no other modern comparable jets have a pure delta form, either they are tailed or got canards, and in the performance scale I would rate a pure delta just as a beauty in simplicity not as an engineering marvel. While we should strive for the later.

The original STR mentioned in IAF ASR is 17 deg per sec, which was eaceeded in AEROINDIA 2013 itself when Tejas mk-1 completed a vertical loop under 20 seconds, which means it has an STR of 18 deg per sec, even within the restricted flight envelope testing with 6G and 22 deg AOA limitations,
AFAIK the vertical loop in the vertical plane is same as the sustained turn needed to complete a full circle, when the plane is doing in on knife edge in horizantal plane to calculate STR.

Modern WVR high off bore sight missiles make this lock on denying Sustained turn a redundant parameter, With missiles like PYTHON it does not really matter whether your opponent is a high STR fighter like F-16 which can out turn you. because pilot rotates his head , see the F-16 , obtains a lock with his DASH or HMDS and WVR missile will lock on to the opposing F-16 irrespective of the fact whether Tejas can out turn F-16 or not.

But in the most important ITR parameter which helps for this quick nose pointing lock obtaining maneuver , would be much better for Tejas mk-1 as it has huge wings and low wing loading with 10 percent more TWR than the Mirage-2000.

 

[ersakthivel]

Better Late Than Never?
Tejas continues to fall behind revised schedules, causing inconvenience to the IAF and the Navy

By Atul Chandra

FORCE May 2013

The long delayed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) achieved a milestone in March, when the last Limited Series Production aircraft (LSP-8) took to the air. The maiden flight of LSP-8 was of particular significance as it is supposed to be in almost the exact configuration as that of Series Production (SP) Tejas fighters. LSP-8 aircraft along with LSP-7 will now be used by the Indian Air Force for User Evaluation Trials (UET).

Surprisingly, LSP aircraft will remain as only a test aircraft with the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) for the SP aircraft (now just a year away) still seeing changes. LSP-8 is the 13 Tejas aircraft to take to the air in 12 years! On another note, the Mig-21 which the Tejas was designed to replace celebrated 50 years of service in the IAF last month!

Defence minister A.K. Antony has already expressed his displeasure with delays in the Tejas programme and stating that the date for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) must not be extended beyond 2014. Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne has already said that with the maximum drawdown of IAF combat squadrons taking place in the 12th plan (2012-2017), it was of critical importance that two squadrons of Tejas be inducted (to maintain force levels at 34 squadrons). At present six squadrons of the LCA are scheduled to be inducted by the end of the 13th plan. The first four aircraft for the IAF were to have been ready by end 2011 and will now happen only by next year.

Orders for 20 Tejas fighters in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration and another of 20 in FOC configuration have been placed by the IAF. IOC-2 would be attained by next month (according to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited chief R.K. Tyagi). It is also looking to ramp up production capabilities from eight to 16 aircraft per year. IOC-1 was granted in January 2011, with a reluctant IAF agreeing to a number of concessions at the time. Wake Penetration Tests (verification of the robustness of Air Data System, Air Data Transducers and FCS against wake of another aircraft), all weather clearance which required lightening tests all had to be completed among many other parameters.

IOC configured LCA's will have capability to carry the R-73 Close Combat Missile (CCM) integrated with Elbit Systems DASH-3 Helmet Mounted Display Sight (HMDS). It will also be able to carry a LITENING target designator pod enabling Precision Guided Munitions (PGM) to be dropped. In FOC configuration, Tejas will have the Israeli, Rafael Derby Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile (BVRAAM) and the Rafael Python 5 Infra Red (IR) Close Combat Missile (CCM) as its primary air-to-air armament. Both missiles will also be carried on the Tejas Navy (Indian Navy already uses the Derby on Sea Harrier LUSH fighters). Tejas will also be fitted with the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) developed Astra BVRAAM. DRDO has declared 2013 as 'Astra Year' and will move on to the all important flight trials. Reports suggest that at least eight flight tests will be conducted this year and IAF user trials are slated for next year. The Astra will offer Off-Bore-Sight launch capability of up to 45 degrees.

The maximum delay will be faced by the Indian Navy (IN), adding insult to its injury. It was the IN which committed funds (approximately Rs 400 crore for the development phase) in 2003 for the navy variant at a time when the IAF had not invested even a single rupee on the programme for its Mig-21 replacement! The IN wanted the LCA Navy to obtain IOC by 2014, this is nowhere in sight and NP-2 is still to fly. Once orders are placed for the Navy LSP aircraft it will take HAL a lead time of three years to begin production. From the Mk-1 version to the MK-2 for the LCA Navy it is expected to take a decade. Developmental testing for the Mk-1 variant alone is expected to take at least till 2018 (for FOC). Another concern is the small number of aircraft available for test flying, while the IAF has 13 (including LSP versions), the Navy will have only two prototypes available. The IN has a stated goal of being a 'Builders Navy' and remains the most committed among the three Services to indigenisation, reflected in their backing and commitment to the LCA Navy (in spite of slippages). However, the solution for the IN if insurmountable delays crop up would be to go in for an imported and very expensive option, the Rafale!

Maintaining timelines has not been a strong point of the LCA programme

Status​

Scheduled​

Realistic​

Induction of Tejas Series Production Aircraft​

July 2011​

2014​

Completion of Full Scale Engineering
Development (FSED) Phase-II of LCA​

December 2008​

2015​

FOC for Tejas Mk-1 Variant​

2012​

2015​

FOC for Tejas trainer variant​

2011​

2016​

Delivery of all 40 Tejas Mk-1 aircraft to IAF​

2015​

2020​

Tejas Mk-2 first flight​

December 2014​

2017​

Tejas Mk-2 Series Production​

June 2016​

2021-2022​

LCA Mk-1 Navy IOC​

2014​

2016​

LCA Mk-2 Navy IOC​

NA​

2021​

Lca tejas mk-1 has already entered the series production, regarding Naval fighter, Only mk- 2 will serve as a deck figher in operation. All the improvements carried out on mk-1 for carrier performance will cut the delays in naval mk-2 progrmam. Everyone knows the LCA program is delayed by 4 or 5 years at the most when we compare it to RAFALE and EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON , which took 16 and seventeen years from the first metal cut to enter series production.They may have been double engined one , but all the engineering challenges and test points for flight test program will be the same.

 

[ersakthivel]

Find this poster on tejas mk-2 the net. Are the specs correct?