Civil war in Ukraine

Status
Not open for further replies.

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
For @jouni:

THE EU IS CRUMBLING BEFORE US

Once Finns break the taboo, it would be easier for Germany to extricate itself from an escalating national disaster without inviting opprobrium from across Europe, or so goes the argument.

"We can't start this off, but the Finns can," said Hans-Olaf Henkel, former head of Germany's industry federation.

Berlin's policy elites are constrained by their honourable - if misdirected - feelings of moral duty towards the euro. They cannot bring themselves to plunge the dagger.

Or as ex-Bundesbanker Thilo Sarrazin puts it, they are driven by "the very German reflex that the Holocaust and Second World War will only be atoned for finally when all our interests, including our money, are in Europe's hands".

Finnish exit - or FIXIT, as they say in Helsinki - is certainly a plausible hypothesis. The Finns have no ensnaring duty to a mystical "Europe". They did not join the EU until 1995, and only then with widespread dissent.

"Sweden and Denmark both held referendums on the euro, and both said no. We were never allowed to vote," said Timo Soini, leader of the True Finns party. That was a mistake. The nation is not locked into ritual assent.

Finns obeyed the rules of EU membership with scrupulous care, while others gamed the system. "Our Lutheran morality, if you will," said foreign minister Erkki Tuomioja.

They alone faced the fiscal implications of EMU for small economies out of cyclical alignment. Finland's budget surplus was 5.3pc of GDP at the top of the boom in 2007. Greece's was 6.5pc in deficit. There lies the full horror of what has happened.

"In Finland, a handshake is final. We thought we had a deal that every country would look after its own finances, only to find the deal was broken," said Alexander Stubb, Finland's Europe minister.

The Finns survived their own gruelling depression without foreign help in the early 1990s when the Soviet Union collapsed and exposed the fragility of the Finnish banking system. The economy shrank by 13pc.

"We had the IMF knocking at our back-door. Unemployment was at 18pc. We said 'never again' and yet here we are in a fresh crisis because of somebody else's fault," said Mr Stubb.

For the True Finns - with 19pc of the vote in the last election - it is an outrage. "We bailed out our own banks, and now after all the lying, dishonesty and malfeasance in Europe, we are being asked to bail out their banks. This is the last straw," said Mr Soini.

There is no doubt that Finland could go it alone. It is the last unsullied AAA state in the Euroland, with a public debt of just 51pc of GDP. The reason why Moody's did not place the country on negative watch last month along with Germany and Holland is a lack of banking exposure to Club Med debt and "relative insulation from the euro area" in trade.

More than two-thirds of Finnish exports go outside the euro bloc, chiefly to Russia, Sweden and the US. In other words, Finland lives in a different economic universe from core-EMU, and is deemed better for it by rating agencies. You could not find a more likely candidate for euro exit.

Yet looming over everything else is Vladimir Putin's Russia, a "19th Century power" - to borrow Robert Kagan's term - that has overturned the post-war borders of Europe once already by attacking Georgia in 2008 and annexing South Ossetia.

Russian armed forces chief Nikolai Makarov played on the theme in June, attacking Finnish "revanchists" and describing Finland's military manoeuvres in its own eastern region as akin to those of Georgia in South Ossetia before the war - ie a casus belli. The Russians are playing hardball over Finnish overtures to NATO.

Looming too are memories of the Winter War of 1940 - when they lost the Hanseatic city of Viipuri - and the bitter struggle against Stalin until 1944, and indeed the compromised sovereignty and media self-censorship that lasted for another half century.

"Membership of the EU and the euro is all about getting as far away as possible from Moscow. That has affected how we think for the past 20 years," said Professor Tapio Raunio from Tampere University. The strategic imperative is to enmesh Finland as deeply as possible into every part of the Western system.

True Finn leader Mr Soini says the euro remains the "state religion" upheld by Finland's elites. Their governing credibility is inextricably linked to EMU project. Most will die in a ditch to defend it.

Yet the tensions are palpable in the Finnish parliament. "Our liabilities keep rising and the mood is becoming critical," said the foreign minister.

Each escalation in EU rescue demands - whether to strip the bail-out fund (ESM) of its preferred creditor status, or to recapitalise Spanish banks directly, or to buy Spanish and Italian debt, and on what terms - requires a fresh vote by the Eduskunta.

The Social Democrats - leaking working class votes to the True Finns - are visibly wobbling. Their ministers fire off cannonades against EU rescues almost weekly to shore up their base. The finance minister Jutta Urpilained said Finland would not "hold onto the euro" at any cost, and then seem surprised when the world took note.

Nobody knows where the snapping point lies. Miapetra Kumpula-Natri, chair of the Grand Committee on Europe, said Finland's political limit on bail-outs is "unwritten", yet dropped the hint of 10pc of GDP. So we watch the numbers. Does the gun cock once Finland's guarantees reach €19bn? Are we there already?

My own guess is that Spain and Italy - separately or acting in concert - will win the North-South race to revulsion and trigger the final denouement. Tightening fiscal policy by 3pc of GDP each year as unemployment rockets is not compatible with democracy, nor with economic science for that matter.

Yet Finland is a long-neglected part of this complex jigsaw puzzle. Global investors will have to add the Helsingin Sanomat to their morning read, along with Greece's Kathimerini, just in case.

Russian Bear stops Finland leaving euro - Telegraph
Read more at LiveLeak.com - Ukraine in Finland Out? so it begins - Finland may be First Country to Leave EU despite Russian Fearmongering
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
I must say though if conventional forces of Nato and RF do duke it out, RF forces would just get massacred but western forces will face HUGE casualties too and western public cannot stomach such a conflict.
"RF forces would just get massacred" - what makes you think so?

Who is dieing in this war? It is 95% Ukrainians. Rest 5% are from other countries - mercenaries or volunteers. Russian *citizen deaths may be 2-3%.
My estimate is more than 50000 deaths have already occurred. The Kiev numbers and UN numbers are hogwash. There is huge under-reporting of numbers.
This is a very bloody war, where saturation fire is the norm. Plus civilian areas are regularly shelled (mostly by Kiev forces).

Indians believe Western propaganda and their military superiority. The fact is not so one-sided. Russian weapons, when used with proper tactics and quantity, work effectively.
 
Last edited:

Razor

STABLE GENIUS
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
7,701
Likes
9,099
Country flag
Off topic but Slav is linguistic classification not racial classification right?
OT but I think it would be difficult here to define what race is.
So, for eg. if Slav is considered a race then so can East-slav and South-slav be considered separate races.
Other than presence of turkic/Mongolic/Iranic/tungusic blood in a considerable quantity in slavs (esp. East-slavs), they are mostly same as euros.

I think ethno-linguistic classification is the term used.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Kharkov experts gather in Russia to discuss a creation of Kharkov Republic days before the terrorist attack

February 25, 2015
Mikhail Slobodskoy - Stoletie
Translated by Kristina Rus



In Belgorod on February 20, a round table was held, called "Kharkov-2015: how to avoid socio-economic and humanitarian disaster in the region." To discuss current and future problems of their region gathered the representatives of public organizations and movements, journalist, expert, legal community of Kharkov region

To find the common ground the Kharkov "maidanites" were invited to the meeting, however, as it turned out, they received threats from the "competent authorities" of Ukraine, prohibiting participation in the event, which was announced in social networks of the Internet, and already at this stage, caused a strong reaction.

[Kharkov terrorist attack, which is viewed as a Kiev provocation, justifying expansion of the "anti-terrorist operation to Kharkov, happened 2 days after the conference, is Kiev fearing it is loosing control over Kharkov? - KR]

How should Kharkov survive and what to do next?

Expert of the analytic group "The Russian East," Anton Guryanov, made a statement about the political trends in Ukraine in 2015: "In a year since the coup in Kiev, the oligarchic elites that came to power on the ideology of ethnic Nazism, built a fascist regime with all of its attributes: suppression of freedom of speech, violation of democratic principles, the use of terror and violence to suppress dissent, the use of non-state military formations and creation of concentration camps, and torture, - said the expert. - What is achieved by this government during this period? Maybe due to these steep and hard measures they improved the quality of life of the titular nation? Perhaps due to "joining Europe" economic performance is steadily increasing and life will get better soon? Perhaps the travel to Europe became more affordable for the titular nation or even for citizens of Ukraine? It turns out that the answer to all these questions is "no". The only "achievement"of the Nazi regime of Kiev protectorate is the first place in the world in number of billionaires in relation to the total capital of the country. At a time when the Prime Minister Yatsenyuk is looking where to borrow money, the family of Pinchuk in London buys a mansion worth £ 1.5 billion. Is this "zrada" or "peremoga" [betrayal or victory]?"

Today's Ukraine, claims the analyst, is not even a social-nationalist state, as was the Nazi Germany in the twentieth century.

"We are dealing with a new modification of Nazism - national-liberalism, in which the "titular nation" and all the rest are placed at the service of the oligarchic elite. The only difference is that the "titular nation" is subject to less repression and has some advantages. But there is no social support even for them."

Guryanov sees several scenarios. One of them, doubtful, is an attempt of Kiev regime to return the out of control region back under its protectorate by political means on the terms of a broad autonomy, up to allowing regional police. But the fact is that the political situation has passed the point of no return, large numbers of women, children and the elderly were killed in Donbass, and it will not be forgotten for a very, very long time. Besides, the Nazi ideology and fascist make-up of the state with certain methods of solving problems will inevitably lead to conflict. Therefore, according to Gurjanov, there is only one way to reset the state on this territory: the complete destruction of Ukrainian Nazism. In other words, denazification. Without this the inhuman ideology will inevitably lead its followers to the physical elimination of dissidents, i.e. to war.

Speaking specifically about the Kharkov region, the expert noted that the political process here may also take on different scenarios. The analytic group "The Russian East" believes that the most likely and acceptable is a creation of a Kharkov People's Republic (KPR). (Guryanov is the head of the People's Council of KPR.) The structure of the population of Kharkov region suggests that there is a high likelihood for the process of liberation movement based on Russian ethnic identity and aspiration of reunification with the Russian people. This is a natural response to the increased faschinization of the state in combination with the process of economic collapse.

Recipes for economic salvation of the situation are also unlikely under the current Kiev regime - it will never go for economic partnership with Russia, without which the economy of Kharkov region will not be able to function. To solve the economic problems of the region a return of products of Kharkov enterprises to the Russian markets is vital. Russians and Crimeans will not come to the "Barabashovo" market, while the fascist thugs break the cars with Russian plates. The most interesting is that European investments are not impossible, while repressions continue in the region. What kind of economic development can we talk about, when the Kiev warriors dream about turning Kharkov into a combat zone! "The Russian East" believes that the solution to economic, political and many other problems of the Kharkov region lies within the framework of a project of the People's Republic: "In the future, it may become a part of a larger project, for example, Novorossia or other, covering the entire territory of former Ukraine or larger parts. This path is not easy, it requires a lot of work, research and suggestions of most bloodless ways to resolve the situation. Kharkov has already sacrificed the lives of many of its sons and daughters who gave their lives in the struggle for the future of our country. Our main political irreconcilable enemy is Ukrainian Nazism. Our cause is right. The enemy will be defeated and victory will be ours!"

* * *

Oleg Sobchenko, head of the organization for the protection of the rights of Ukrainians in Russia, noted that the Kharkov public has ideologically split in the last year, and the question arises: how after defeating the junta can we convince the opponents of the idea of KPR and Novorossia. To that Guryanov quoted a famous statement: "People need to be talked to, people need to be told the truth. In order to clearly convey our position to the people, we should clearly describe what KPR stands for in socio-economic, political and social spheres."

Guryanov believes that "genuine Maidanites" are mentally against the oligarchate, corruption, lawlessness. Now they got the results exactly opposite to their maidan aspirations, therefore those of them who are honest with themselves, we shoud talk to and negotiate with.


Guryanov is convinced that we should move away from the concept of "titular", or primary nation.

A theme of a multi-layered Kharkov society was expanded by a political scientist, human rights activist and journalist Dmitry Gubin, who emphasized the following social groups:

- in relation to Nazi ideology - with people who support battalion "Azov" of Biletsky, there is no sense in attempting a discussion; -

- those caught on a hook of ukro-propaganda in relation to Russia - with those a conversation can be held, but to do that we need to make a breach in their minds and change the "information background";

- there are also opportunists among the new regime, in particular, the professors of some universities and bureaucrats of the newly appointed administration - they are the situational supporters of the regime.

Kharkov society is divided in relation to local elites - those who are "for Avakov", are nearing the first of the above categories. For example: on February 12, in the gallery "Yermilov Center" (the basement of Karazin KNU) [Kharkov National University?] an auction was held with participation of those who want to become the elite of the new Ukrainian Nazism. But there are also passive citizens and those who will never accept the Nazi regime. The political scientist believes that it is possible to undertake a targeted work with all the categories except for the first , which should only be informed about the inevitability of punishment.

The "New elite" of the regime Gubin divided into three categories:

- those who don't want to get into a lustration trash can;

- socialites who are ready to show moderate loyalty to the regime, however, the Nazi state requires daily manifestation of the inextricable devotion;

- psychiatric patients

The distinction between these groups is very fluid.

One of the pillars of planting Nazism the analyst sees, is higher education, as the employees of certain university departments have turned into the servants and agents of Nazism, much more ardent than some serving in terbat [territorial battalion] "Azov". And as for "human rights defenders", who grew up on Western grants, they have now become the mouthpiece of the junta. Thus, a well-known KPG (Kharkov human rights group), led by E. Zakharov, on its website defended the junta in the situation of March 1st and April 8th of last year, when in Kharkov there were mass arrests of the activists of antimaidan.

In post-nazi Germany the government of K. Adenauer and the allied occupation administrations strictly conducted "the line of three D's": - denazification, decartelization, democratization. Denazification is the absolutely necessary policy, without it no cure of society will take place.

It is impossible not to agree with Gubin: if the economy can recover from any level of devastation, the humanitarian sphere is immeasurably more difficult to restore.

* * *

When discussing the economic problems of the region, the organizer of the meeting, the President of the Interregional Fund for Promotion of Employment, Alexander Alexandrovsky noted that "the Nazis put the final nail in the coffin of the Kharkov industry, as well as the coffins of small and medium business". 30 thousand people from a famous Barabashovo market [bazaar] joined the unemployed. Barely alive are factories "FAD", "Electrotyazhmash", "Communar", "Porshen" factory is closed. Famous KTZ [HTZ - Kharkov Tractor Factory?] in the last year produced three (!) tractors, and mainly provides services for the repair of tractors. The companies associated with repair of military equipment are working, Malysheva factory, tank repair and others.

"Turboatom" and " Kharkov "Uzhkabel" have enough orders.

Kharkov Aviation Plant (HAZ) announced a partial default, and is still breathing only because its runway is used in the war against Donbass. Meanwhile, the closing of HAZ will lead to the closure of the famous HAI University, which is more than 10 thousand researchers, teachers and students, invaluable scientific school.

The meeting touched upon the issue of the expected catastrophic surges of tariffs on utilities in Ukraine.

In fact, on February 18, the head of the National Bank of Ukraine Gontareva publicly stated: "In accordance with our program with the IMF, the tariff increase will be very sharp - 280% for gas and about 66% for heat". These first officially announced numbers of future tariffs for gas and heating for Ukrainian households caused another shock among the citizens: heating of a one-bedroom apartment will cost almost $100. While the average salary in Ukraine in 2014 amounted to 3.4 thousand UAH (about $140 - at current exchange rate) [looks like it already dropped since the publishing of this article]. And it is not clear how the government arrived at this "average". Actually in Kharkov it is hard to find a salary higher then 2,000 UAH. And the most common pension is 1,000-1,500 UAH.

Heating tariffs will increase from April 1st. However, given the requirements of the IMF the fee for 1 sq. meter will increase, presumably depending on the price of gas, from 60 to 100 UAH. That is, per month for heating of the apartment with an area of 40 square meters it will cost a 2.4-4 thousand UAH ($100-180). With the area of the apartment of 50 square meters, respectively, 3-5 thousand UAH per month. And then in ascending order.

The Kiev government promises to increase heating tariffs gradually until 2017. However, it warns that the above increase is only the first step, even in the current year. Meanwhile stubborn statistics give the following numbers: the minimum wage in Ukraine is $44, while in Bangladesh, Zambia and Ghana it is $46,6, and in Gambia, Lesotho and Chad - $51,5.

Regarding the Kharkov industry, expert Alexandrovsky believes that the way out, as for the entire economy of the region, may be in the creation of a free economic zone in Kharkov region. Without the restoration of industry and close cooperation with Russia the Kharkov region has no prospects. Recall how significant is the Kharkov region: it made up 18% of GDP in the pre-junta period. By the way, Donetsk region was 20% and Lugansk - 5%. That is, these three regions collectively made up 43% of the GDP of the former Ukraine!

Guryanov added that a key decision in the investment attractiveness of the Kharkov region should be a political decision. Alexandrovsky reminded that there is an agreement between the Kharkov and Belgorod regions on cross-border cooperation, however, the political situation does not allow the cooperation to evolve. The presence of borders, the expert believes, gives rise to corruption and the absence of boundaries leads to the prosperity of regions.

In fact, the topic of cross-border cooperation and integration of Kharkovshina [Kharkov Region] with the Customs Union, until the main issues about power, about denazification are resolved, seem like a ladder to the moon.

* * *

There was talk about the spiritual aspect of the situation, mass brainwashing. Writer Stanislav Minakov wondered: is the escape at all possible from the consciousness, into which the Ukrainian society was plunged in a sectarian way for nearly a quarter of a century.

As noted recently by Kholmogorov, "how to treat all that happened to Ukrainians - I can honestly say, I don't know. And is it possible to cure? Although a treatment is necessary, regardless of the fate of Donbass, to leave these madmen in power in Kiev's is just a crime".

Some believe that changes will occur in the mass consciousness, which, in its defense, will generate "fake" memories of its role in the civil war unleashed by the junta in Donbass. With the victory of the militia - the current supporters of the "United Ukraine" at any price will soon convince themselves that they did not support the Nazi regime and even fought against it, being in the underground. Creating memories is a way to protect the psyche and a chance to embed itself in the new society. Analyst Vershinin expressed an opinion that those who "hopped" on "Euro-maidan", as well as those supporting and approving of them, faced with the consequences and horrified by their own work, already are trying to escape from shame, tearing the subconscious, and resenting themselves, building a different more acceptable past. And this past, before it is passed on to another generation, must be seriously addressed in the process of denazification.

Blogger Dzygovbrodsky at the meeting in Belgorod expressed a thesis about equal, along with the physical participants in Nazi coup d'etat, responsibility of Ukrainian intellectuals, journalists, writers and others, who actively zombified the brains of their compatriots and continue their dirty work now.

* * *

The co-chair of the Committee of State Building of the Novorossia, Vladimir Rogov said that Ukraine was killed in Euromaidan, and the people who killed Ukraine, dress in the yellow and blue flag and continue to kill former citizens in Donbass. The conflict is in the heads, in families, in homes, and in Donbass it is only materialized. Today the Ruina [Ukraine] is slipping into complete chaos, organized by the Anglo-Saxons. But controlled chaos will be transformed into uncontrolled. The first evidence of its beginning is recently announced creation of general staff of 13 punitive battalions of National Guard, alternative to the General staff of the armed forces of Ukraine.

Expert Rogov argues that, in fact, supporting a new ceasefire in accordance with Minsk-2, DPR and LPR are giving Ukraine the last chance to be rescued.

The reality suggests that in the framework of Ukrainian statehood Poroshenko should be considered as "Peter the Last".

Rogov reminded about unprecedented pressure on Kiev judges in charge of the lawsuit of the pensioners from Donbas to the Cabinet of Ministers, which by decision No. 0595 stopped paying pensions to residents of DPR and LPR.

But across the entire Ukraine a draft law was prepared, according to which the salary of working pensioners will be reduced by 15 percent.

The future of the oligarch Kolomoisky, who "cut" himself from the state budget 1 billion UAH per month, but over the last month has lost 25% of the capital, was also discussed.

Rogov brought up interesting numbers about mobilization in Kharkov. In Rogan district out of 800 summons, 145 were delivered, signed on receipt by 7 people. 240 summons were delivered to "Electrotyazhmash", 350 - to HTZ (presented about a dozen). The junta, sending workers into the army, is bleeding the industry and other spheres. For example, in one of the districts of Zaporozhye out of 83 drivers of minibuses, 47 were called up.

Only according to official statistics in Zaporozhye there are now 50 thousand unemployed, in Kharkov - 120 thousand. In reality the situation is much more grim.

* * *

The round table participants also discussed the problem of the activists now in junta dungeons. About the lawlessness in SBU detention facilities, talked via Skype a Kharkov anti-junta activist Julya Kolesnik, released as a result of exchange of prisoners of war, who survived a 40-day hunger strike and was subjected to beatings.

The difficult physical condition in which people come back from junta dungeons and from captivity was discussed. The Nazis burned swastikas with red-hot bayonet-knives on the bodies of 48 militia men.

None of the released are able to return to their families remaining on the territory controlled by Kiev, because junta "law enforcers" commonly arrest those who were previously released. Rogov said: out of 400 exchanged prisoners only two (!) people received from the junta some semblance of identity documents, and the rest were transferred to Novorossia with unconvincing "receipts". Therefore, almost all released POW's are having problems with documents - as in DPR and LPR, and in Russia.

* * *

The participants of the round table adopted a resolution which stated that the events of past year have radically changed Ukraine and the lives of its citizens. All the main results of these changes are negative and often tragic.

This is a civil war, enormous casualties among the civilian population and military units on both sides, destroyed economy and the impoverishment of the people, a total violation of human rights, legal "chaos", persecuting of dissidents. At the same time preserved and multiplied the most shocking features of the previous government: corruption, cronyism, raiding, but the main difference of life before "Maidan" from life "after Maidan" was the transition from peace to war. One of the main reasons for the tragedy in Ukraine, was an attempt to politically, administratively and physically "break" the millions of people who disagree with what has come of the Ukrainian state, and categorically reject to consider their opinion about the future of the country.

Stating the negative dynamics of the situation in the majority of aspects of society life important for all the residents of Kharkov, the participants expressed extreme concern that a tragic scenario is becoming more and more likely in the region. The resolution states:

In order to avoid socio-economic and humanitarian disaster in Kharkov and Kharkov region, it is necessary:

1. To stop the radical polarization of society in the region, and dehumanization of opponents. To not allow a large-scale military confrontation.

2. To prevent further growth of influence of Nazi ideology, unacceptable for Kharkov residents. Nazism of any kind is doomed in Kharkov, but the sooner its manifestation will be cropped, the sooner the region and the country as a whole, will be able to return to normal life.

3. To ensure the right for political activity, freedom of assembly, freedom of expression; the right to cultural, language, civilizational and national identity, the absolute official equality of Russian and Ukrainian language in all the spheres of life of the Kharkov region.

4. Create the mechanisms for real self-governance: a number of positions which are now occupied by the appointees from Kiev, must be locally elected; on the most important issues of life of local communities the residents of the region should be consulted on local referendums.

5. To restore the legal field, to guarantee the observance of basic human rights, to investigate military and other serious crimes. To punish the guilty according to Ukrainian and international laws. To restore normal functioning of law enforcement agencies. With all the enormous shortcomings of the current law enforcement system, its destruction, which is occurring over the last year, already led to a huge increase in crime. Its complete collapse will lead to anarchy and lawlessness.

6. Stop creating the image of the enemy of Russia. To restore cooperation with the Russian Federation, otherwise Ukraine and especially the regions of the South and East, primarily Kharkov, will face the inevitable economic catastrophe. Many prerequisites of which in the field of production, trade and services in Kharkov can already be observed today. Also, if possible, to develop cooperation with the countries of the EU. To create a special economic zone in Kharkov region, which will allow to realize the maximum potential of the region.

The round table participants plan to coordinate their future steps to find ways of overcoming those challenges faced today by the Kharkov region, and are ready for a constructive dialogue with supporters and opponents.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Is Turkey Turning Towards a Full Eurasian Pivot?

Turkey's flirtation with purchasing non-NATO-compatible Chinese missiles to complement its planned air defense system indicates that Ankara may be preparing for a grander non-Western policy pivot in the future.

Andrew Korybko (Sputnik - Russian news agency) [SOURCE]

Andrew Korybko is our regular contributor. This article also appeared at Sputnik.



However, it isn't just energy that attracts Turkey to Russia

As it stands, Turkey is officially deliberating between purchasing Chinese, American, or French missiles for its air defense system, but the fact that military products from Beijing are being seriously contemplated by the NATO-member state shows that its leadership is not as firmly embedded in the 'Atlantic Alliance' as previously thought. Even if this is just a negotiating gimmick to squeeze greater concessions out of its American and French partners, it still speaks volumes about Ankara's shaky relationship with the West by showing that Turkey feels it could use the threat of a believable Eurasian pivot as 'blackmail' to its advantage.

Washington's Failed Kurdish Gambit

The single largest event that made observers begin questioning whether Turkey was contemplating a pivot to Eurasia was the US' failed attempt at using Kurdish nationalism to pressure Ankara into invading Syria. Truth be told, this is exactly what Turkey itself had spoken of doing in the past, but under its own conditions and with unquestionable guarantees from NATO and the GCC that they would support it in this endeavor. Washington, however, had other plans, and fanned the flames of Kurdish nationalism with the intent that this would scare Turkey enough into commencing a 'humanitarian intervention' in Syria's Ayn al-Arab (Kobani in Kurdish), which would open the way for a more formal invasion of the country than had been stealthily proceeding for the past four years.

But, Turkey didn't bite the bait for two reasons:

It wanted concrete guarantees that NATO and the GCC would follow up with any military support that Turkey requested (which it never received from either); and most importantly, It felt that the US' bilateral engagement with 'Kurdistan' constituted an existential threat to the Turkish state.

Due to these two primary factors, Turkey began to take steps in doing what it had thought of for quite some time already, and that's diversifying its foreign partnerships by more robustly reaching out to the non-Western world.

The Eurasian Persuasion

Thus far, this has meant closer cooperation with Russia (the feared 'enemy' of NATO, according to most Western pundits) through the so-called 'Turk Stream' pipeline, which is the replacement for the cancelled South Stream project. However, it isn't just energy that attracts Turkey to Russia, since relations with Moscow offer more comprehensive benefits for Ankara if it decides to move towards a full strategic partnership. Here's a glimpse of some fields where Turkey can profit:

Economics:

The Eurasian Union could provide a suitable enough replacement to Turkey's stalled 30-year-long journey in joining the EU.

Politics:

Russia values sovereignty as a key pillar in international affairs, and thus won't interfere with Turkey's domestic politics.

Security:

While the US was double-dealing against Turkey by working with the Kurds and, as some in the country believe, supporting the Gezi Park protests (which could be structurally seen as a Color Revolution warm-up, no matter how popular and seemingly genuine they were), Turkey faces no such security risks from Russia.

Due to these reasons and more, Turkey's leadership could be seriously persuaded to pivot towards Eurasia and away from the West.

On The Fence (As Planned?)

The current arrangement, however, sees Turkey sitting on the fence between both sides, which in some ways is a manifestation of multipolarity.

What is understood by this is that the country is playing all sides to its advantage, seeking to capitalize off of the competition for its allegiance and holding back from overly committing to one side or another.

It's unknown how long Turkey can manage in this delicate balancing act before it's compelled to more firmly take sides, but it's worthy to discuss which of its interactions complicate deeper partnership with each of them in order to get a better picture of where it might be leaning:

Challenges With the West:

Eurasian Union Talk:

The West is put off by the fact that Turkey has been talking with Russia about closer cooperation with the Eurasian Union, since if the two are successfully integrated, it would end Brussels' ability to use the carrot of future EU membership as enticement in getting Ankara to do its bidding.

'Turkish Stream':

This strategic partnership completely destroyed the EU's negotiating leverage in using South Stream as a weapon against Russia, and the West is extremely perturbed by Turkey assisting Russia in finding an alternative route for its energy exports.

SCO Dialogue Partner:

The formal delineation of Turkey's relationship with the non-Western institutional behemoth opens the way for closer ties to develop between Ankara and its new partners, which could pull the country even further away from its traditional allies with time.

Challenges With Eurasia (Russia):

The War on Syria:

No matter how close Turkey moves towards Russia and the non-West, it still continues to be the prime external destabilizer in Syria through its role as a terrorist, weapons, and financial conduit supporting illegal regime change against the popular and democratically elected government there.

NATO Infrastructure:

Even if Turkey decided to do away with the West and abandon NATO (either de-facto or de-jure), it would still have to contend with such obstacles as the US Air Force base in Incirlik (which some reports cite as secretly hosting nuclear weapons), making it unlikely that the US would peacefully abandon its positions without first resorting to some type of political subterfuge (i.e. Color Revolution) to reverse the decision.

Neo-Ottomanism:

This ideological strain present in the minds of Turkey's ruling elite (current Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu essentially invented it) means that the country will likely continue to behave in an aggressive manner towards its former sphere of influence in the Mideast and perhaps even the Balkans, thus making it a potential loose cannon that may not be geopolitically dependable as a close Russian partner.

Stepping away from the details and looking at the larger picture, Turkey's challenges with the West are generally of a soft, asymmetrical nature, whereas the obstacles standing before its relations with Eurasia largely represent harder, more conventional interests.

While the West hasn't proposed any relevant solutions for overcoming its difficulties with Turkey, Eurasia has, and it takes the form of Chinese missiles. Thus, if Ankara does in fact go ahead with the proposed deal to purchase Beijing's anti-air armaments, it would represent a more tangible shift away from the West and closer to the Eurasia, which may symbolize the larger overall pivot possibly underway in the country's geopolitical affairs.
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

EXORCIST
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
3,326
Likes
5,408
Country flag
Ukraine Risks Losing IMF Support for Aid If War Escalates

(Bloomberg) -- Ukraine risks losing support from IMF member countries for a proposed $17.5 billion bailout if the conflict in the former Soviet republic continues to escalate, according to two people familiar with the matter.

The new four-year loan program is awaiting approval by the International Monetary Fund's executive board, which represents the lender's 188 member nations. Getting the panel's consent will become more challenging if pro-Russia rebels continue their advance and seize territory such as the strategic port city of Mariupol, one of the people said.

A second person said that while a worsening conflict would complicate approval, IMF country representatives are likely to maintain their support unless an open conflict with Russia breaks out affecting the majority of Ukraine. Both people asked not to be identified because the matter is confidential.

Any doubts over the IMF funds would increase pressure on Ukrainian allies including the U.S. and European Union to step up their own funding to prevent the country from becoming more vulnerable to Russian economic pressure and wider incursion by pro-Russia rebels. A worsening conflict would make it tougher for Ukraine to maintain economic commitments to the IMF and repay the money while deepening the fund's involvement in the worst standoff in Europe since the end of the Cold War.

Plugging Ukraine's financing needs and stabilizing its economy amid an armed conflict will be an "enormous challenge," said William Taylor, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine from 2006 to 2009 who is now acting executive vice president at the U.S. Institute of Peace. "If they're going to exist as a nation, they're going to have to be able to defend themselves."

Board Support

Last year's $17 billion, two-year bailout for Ukraine by the IMF had broad support from the fund's board, overcoming concerns at the time about the security risks in the country, one of the people said.

There have been many violations of the cease-fire agreed on in the Belarusian capital of Minsk on Feb. 12, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said Wednesday. Ukraine and its allies in the EU and the U.S. accuse Russia of backing the militants in the conflict that has killed more than 5,600 people, according to United Nations estimates. Russia denies military involvement.

Ukraine's decision this week to tighten capital controls may also complicate the IMF plans. IMF staff members are revising their economic projections in light of the restrictions, according to one of the people familiar with the situation.

Exchange Rate

The Washington-based IMF said in announcing the program Feb. 12 that Ukraine agreed to maintain or implement certain policies, including a flexible exchange rate. The lender said in a statement earlier this week that while capital controls may be necessary, the fund expects them to be eventually lifted.

Ukrainian officials will have to explain to the IMF why the central bank tightened capital controls, as well as how the government plans to revive the economy in general, one of the people familiar with the matter said.

The IMF's executive board will consider the aid package on March 11 and the loans will be front-loaded to help stabilize the economy quickly, the fund said in an e-mailed statement Wednesday without elaborating on how the conflict will influence the board's decision. The fund hasn't given any indication that members will reject the program.

The IMF also said it's ready to assist Ukraine in designing measures to address imbalances in the foreign-exchange market.

No Condition

Gerry Rice, an IMF spokesman, said last week that the proposed aid for Ukraine isn't conditioned on an end to the fighting. "The conflict is something that we are concerned about and monitor, but the new program makes very conservative assumptions in its baseline scenario for 2015 to buffer a further impact of the ongoing conflict in the east," he told reporters.

The intensifying conflict has shattered the fund's economic projections. In April, the IMF forecast the Ukrainian economy would grow 2 percent this year after shrinking 5 percent in 2014. By September, the fund had cut its growth forecast to 1 percent this year, while assuming the conflict would subside "in the coming months."

The Ukrainian economy ended up shrinking as much as 7.5 percent in 2014 as the conflict took a "significant toll on the industrial base and exports," undermining confidence and putting pressure on the financial system, the IMF said this month. The economy will probably contract 5.5 percent this year, Finance Minister Natalie Jaresko said Feb. 16.
Reserves Plunge


Ukraine's gold and foreign-currency reserves plunged to $6.4 billion in January, the lowest since 2004, from $17.8 billion a year earlier, according to central bank figures.

"The situation is really serious and if there is any foreign donor help, it should be coming in a matter of weeks, not months," said Ondrej Schneider, senior economist at the Institute of International Finance in Washington and a former adviser to the Czech government. "It's a matter of weeks before they run out of reserves."

Jaresko said Wednesday that the government is trying to get the parliament to approve laws to fulfill IMF requirements ahead of the fund's March 11 decision. The first part of the IMF loan will be disbursed within several days after approval, Jaresko said at a briefing in Kiev.

IMF Managing Director Christine Lagarde said earlier this month that the aid program is subject to "high risks," with the main one being "geopolitical developments that may affect market and investor confidence."

The IMF-led program totals $40 billion when including bilateral deals with nations as well as about $15 billion in savings expected from negotiations the country is pursuing with bond investors. Achieving that level of savings from a bond restructuring is probably too optimistic, Schneider said.

The IMF has stalled payouts under the existing funding plan as the nation held presidential elections in October, lawmakers delayed the passage of this year's budget and the parties negotiated the revised bailout.

Ukraine Risks Losing IMF Support for Aid If War Escalates - Bloomberg Business
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

EXORCIST
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
3,326
Likes
5,408
Country flag
Captive Ukrainian soldiers recover bodies of comrades



DONETSK, UKRAINE—Ukrainian PoWs in the separatist stronghold of Donetsk began a task Wednesday that strained their hearts as well as their muscles: digging through the rubble to retrieve the bodies of fellow soldiers killed last month in the bitter battle for the city's airport.

Associated Press journalists saw at least four bodies being carried out of the once-glittering, now-obliterated Donetsk airport terminal. A Ukrainian official said seven in all were retrieved. Rebel representatives said many more soldiers were still buried under the collapsed building, but provided no figures.

One captive soldier saw two friends being pulled out of the rubble, as the facility's twisted steel beams and smashed cement walls were being sawn into pieces and towed away.

"I recognized them from their clothing. They were my friends," said the man, a member of the Ukrainian army's 90th brigade who identified himself only as Sasha.

The bodies themselves were contorted by rigor mortis after being left outside for weeks in the frigid winter. Work was briefly interrupted by the sounds of gunfire in the distance, then resumed.

It was not clear whether the Ukrainian soldiers were forced into performing the recovery work or volunteered, but rebels have previously forced PoWs to perform hard labour. The Ukrainian captives were assisted by rescue workers employed by the separatists.

"These guys were fighting here. I don't know what for. They were following the orders of their president, and they respected that order," said rebel commander Mikhail Tolstykh, known widely by nom de guerre Givi. "We all are military men here and we have to respect our enemy."

Russian-backed separatists and Ukrainian troops had battled regularly over Donetsk's airport since May, when government forces decisively rebuffed separatist attempts to take the showcase terminal built to help Ukraine host the 2012 Euro soccer championships. Fighting over the terminal surged in mid-January, swiftly unravelling a month-long truce.

Buckling under a barrage of artillery and small-arms attacks, Ukrainian forces conceded Jan. 22 that they had lost much of the terminal.

Ukrainian Defence Ministry spokesman Vladislav Seleznev has said 15 servicemen were killed in fighting over the airport in January. Their bodies have lain uncollected since then.

Vasily Budik, an adviser to Ukraine's defence minister, wrote on his Facebook page that seven bodies were recovered Wednesday and that work at the airport would continue.

Neither side has revealed how many captives they currently hold, but AP journalists saw up to 25 government PoWs working at the airport Wednesday. The rebels handed over 139 captive Ukrainian soldiers last weekend in exchange for 52 people held by the government.

The fighting in eastern Ukraine has killed nearly 5,800 people since April. Russia denies charges that it is arming and supporting the rebels, but western nations and NATO reject those denials as absurd. A peace plan agreed upon earlier this month by the leaders of Russia and Ukraine, brokered by France and Germany, aims to cement a ceasefire and begin a pullback of heavy weapons.

Ukraine's military said rebel violations of the ceasefire persisted Wednesday but had fallen off in recent days.

On top of the fighting in the east, Ukraine is also trying to contain severe economic troubles exacerbated by corruption and the cost of the war.

Piling on the economic pressure, Russian President Vladimir warned Wednesday that Russia would cut gas supplies to Ukraine unless it paid in advance for future deliveries. He said the latest payment from Ukraine would only be good for another three to four days of gas, and warned that any Russian gas cut-off to Ukraine may disrupt supplies heading to other European nations.

In Brussels, European Union President Donald Tusk warned that the European Union will not hesitate to impose new punishment on the separatists and Russia if the latest Ukraine peace deal collapses.

Tusk told the EU legislature that "additional sanctions remain on the table. We should be ready for any development — good or bad.

RIP:rip:

Captive Ukrainian soldiers recover bodies of comrades | Toronto Star
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

EXORCIST
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
3,326
Likes
5,408
Country flag
Ukraine Goes Its First Day In Weeks Without Troops Killed:rofl::D:D

A long-awaited truce took hold at last in east Ukraine on Wednesday, with the army reporting no combat fatalities for the first time in weeks, but the news did nothing to halt a currency collapse that forced the central bank to ban most trading.

The Ukrainian military said the past 24 hours were its first day without combat fatalities for several weeks, since long before the truce was meant to take effect on Feb 15. Only one soldier had been wounded.

In rebel-held eastern Ukraine, rebels were withdrawing heavy guns from the front. Kiev said it was too early to do likewise, but its acknowledgement that most of the front was quiet suggests it too could implement a truce that had appeared stillborn when the rebels launched a major offensive last week.

The cautious good news from the front has come amid dire economic consequences for a country teetering on bankruptcy.

With the hryvnia currency in free fall as investors flee, the central bank called a halt by banning banks from buying foreign currency on behalf of clients for the rest of this week.

Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk said the ban was bad for the economy. He had learned about it on the Internet and would demand an explanation from central bank chief Valeria Gontareva.

The central bank said the move was necessary to stabilize the currency amid "unfounded" demand for foreign exchange.

The decision left the true value of the currency in limbo. Although banks could still trade with each other, by noon there were no registered trades at any rate. Tiny trades were recorded in the afternoon at strong rates, but at volumes in the hundreds of thousands of dollars that gave little signal of the true price in a market normally worth hundreds of millions a day.

Exchange kiosks in Kiev were selling limited amounts of dollars for 39 hryvnias, around 20 percent worse than rates advertised in the windows of commercial banks where dollars were not available.

A construction worker exchanging dollars at a kiosk in a grocery shop in return for a bag filled with thousands of hryvnia, laughed and told shoppers: "Soon we will have to walk around with suitcases for cash, like in the 1990s."

The previous day, the central bank rate based on reported trades had fallen 11 percent against the dollar. The hryvnia has lost at least half its value so far this year after halving over the course of 2014.

Ukraine Goes Its First Day In Weeks Without Troops Killed
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Excerpts from an excellent article by The Saker entitled "Making sense of Obama's billion dollar hammer," explains why reason and logic is less likely to work with someone who is convinced about his might, real or imagines.


You probably heard it by now: Obama has pledged a billion dollars to what my "beloved" BBC called "European security". The official name for this initiative is the "European Reassurance Initiative". You see, Obama and the BBC apparently believe that Europeans are really terrified and that they believe that the Russian tanks might roll into Warsaw, Athens, Rome or Lisbon at any time. The good news is that Uncle Sam is here to reassure them that he will let no such thing happen and that this additional 1 billion dollars will deter the Russian Bear.

Have you ever read something more ridiculous?

So what is really going on here?

There is a wonderful American expression which says that "to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail." Well, to Obama, the EU and the Ukraine sure do look like nails because the only instrument the USA has used in its foreign policy for many decades now is a "hammer" composed of money and guns. But let's backtrack for a second.

Faced with this prospect, the White House does what the French call "fuite en avant" ("fleeing forward" if you want, or "advancing even faster into the quicksands"). The Russians did not take the Ukrainian bait? Fine – we will pretend like they did anyway and "reassure" the Europeans by declaring that "the security of America's European allies is sacrosanct" with enough gravitas to hopefully make them believe that they are really threatened. The neo-Nazi junta has just engaged in yet another massacre in the east? No problem, we will simply praise the regime for its restraint and "democratic nature". The EU leaders are having a panic attack over the latest elections? No problem either, we will just give them a one billion dollar bribe to show them that we will stand by them no matter what and regardless of whom those pesky Europeans might vote for the next time around.

Because, of course, this is what this billion dollar is all about. It's just bribe money for the 1% in the US and the EU to be distributed amongst these plutocrats under the guise of "reassuring Europe". In reality, the "European Reassurance Initiative" only serves to reassure the European elites and the Eurobureaucrats as they are the only ones who will truly benefit from it. And were shall the money come from? Well, hell, Uncle Sam can just create it out of thin air with a few keystrokes on the right computer. And as long as the EU and the rest of the US-colonized planet continues to accept payments in dollars, they will be the ones really paying for this "EU plutocracy reassurance initiative".

What does this mean for Novorossia?

It means that the people of Novorossia must truly believe in themselves and stop hoping for a Russian intervention which is not going to happen, at least at this moment in time. Let Obama shake his billion dollar hammer until he drops in exhaustion, but never let that distract you from a victory which is very much within your reach. Yes, the massacres in Odessa, Mariupol, Slaviansk, Kramatorsk, Donetsk and now Lugansk are disgusting atrocities which cannot be forgiven or forgotten, but they are not on the same scale as the horrors of WWII and yet the Russian people eventually also won that war.

Lies and terror have the exact same purpose: to defeat the will of their target and we can expect a lot more lies and terror from the neo-Nazis in Kiev and from the AngloZionist Empire. But if we take heed of Hezbollah's example in Lebanon and if we keep in mind that time is very much on our side, we will prevail, sooner rather than later.
 

VivekShah

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
143
Likes
62

Ole McInsane has never met a war he doesn't like. I think the best solution is to put him in a bomber with dummy bombs and missiles and let him relive his glory days. Crazy old fool.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
McCain is a hero of the US because he was a PW during the Vietnam War.

In the US, if you are a PW you are taken to be a hero.
 

apple

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
612
Likes
174
Re: Russian conscripts forced to fight in the Ukraine

@pmaitra
Can you merge this thread with the previous one.. I think a thread with the same line already exist..

Seems like the west is losing out a big deal to Russians...So much propoganda on repeat .. :D
The previous thread on this article was locked by Pmaitra, then re-opened by Ray, then locked by someone "unknown"...

Business Insider is propoganda :confused: OK, sure
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
He's a hero for his actions when he was a POW. Criticising McCain is beneath you
Tell me which PW is treated with kid gloves excepting the ones who surrender during the 1971 Indo Pak War?

In our part of the world, where we have fought wars, unlike you, and we have had our people PsW, our PsW were not treated as heroes or condemned. Becoming a PW is a part of the risk. Hanging on is a part of the training.

See and participate in a war/ conflict and then comment. Don't merely go by hype.
 

bhramos

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
25,625
Likes
37,233
Country flag
Photos from the occupied Odessa. "During the period from yesterday until now passed through Odessa several columns technology, in particular 12 units of anti-aircraft missile systems S-300. One of the divisions deployed in the direction Chernomorka. Photos of today."

 

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
For @jouni:



Finns obeyed the rules of EU membership with scrupulous care, while others gamed the system. "Our Lutheran morality, if you will," said foreign minister Erkki Tuomioja.



"In Finland, a handshake is final. We thought we had a deal that every country would look after its own finances, only to find the deal was broken," said Alexander Stubb, Finland's Europe minister.

Yet looming over everything else is Vladimir Putin's Russia, a "19th Century power" - to borrow Robert Kagan's term - that has overturned the post-war borders of Europe once already by attacking Georgia in 2008 and annexing South Ossetia.

Russian armed forces chief Nikolai Makarov played on the theme in June, attacking Finnish "revanchists" and describing Finland's military manoeuvres in its own eastern region as akin to those of Georgia in South Ossetia before the war - ie a casus belli. The Russians are playing hardball over Finnish overtures to NATO.

"Membership of the EU and the euro is all about getting as far away as possible from Moscow. That has affected how we think for the past 20 years," said Professor Tapio Raunio from Tampere University. The strategic imperative is to enmesh Finland as deeply as possible into every part of the Western system.

Russian Bear stops Finland leaving euro - Telegraph
Read more at LiveLeak.com - Ukraine in Finland Out? so it begins - Finland may be First Country to Leave EU despite Russian Fearmongering
This article is few years old. Today there is no widespread will to exit from the Euro. Of course we are pissed off that some "freetravelling scounderels" @arpakola came to Euro while we were following all the rules to the full. For Greece clearly the Eurasian Union would be the best place, there they would be with their equal minded people. Also Greece would look rich in that company!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
This article is few years old. Today there is no widespread will to exit from the Euro. Of course we are pissed off that some "freetravelling scounderels" @arpakola came to Euro while we were following all the rules to the full. For Greece clearly the Eurasian Union would be the best place, there they would be with their equal minded people. Also Greece would look rich in that company!
The article is two years old. Nothing much has changed in those two years.
I doubt Greece affects matters in Finland. EU has printed 2 trillion Euros in 2 tranches. Most of this money went to France, Italy etc. Not much went to Greece. If you talk freeloaders, you need to look in the direction of France.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Akim

Professional
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
8,543
Country flag
@Akim, feel free to comment on this video, with your oft repeated claims that you are Russian and you live in Odessa. Just know that many of us are not going to ignore the possibility that you might not have the freedom to express yourself, because, if you do, you could end up in jail, considering you are living in a Fascist state.
I'm not going to explain, You don't believe me do you have any "truth" which was given thee by Russian TV channels. You don't believe the witnesses. You can see me on the Kulikovo field.

It is the 27th of February, when there was no capture of the Crimea. You have a very primitive imagination. Can you not love his power, but to love their country.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top