China systematically killing Indian manufacturing: L&T

[ppgj]

I thought we have discussed this before.

Chinese company outsourced the chimney construction work to Delhi-based Gannon Dunkerley Company Limited (GDCL).
Balco probe: 'Stay' order for 89 Chinese - India - The Times of India

Thank God, i find the report from a Indian newspaper!

45 people dead for the poor quality of Indian contructor, chinese company sub-contracted the project to a local constructor!!!

who is responsible for the supervision of the construction? under the chinese engineers, GDCL works. design, mix, selection have to be given and approved by the main contractor. they can sub contract but responsibilty vests with them.

The NIT observed that the materials used were of sub-standard quality, technical fault in design, soil testing done at the chimney site did not meet the Indian Standard Code, poor workmanship, improper water curing of the under-construction chimney, negligence in supervision and monitoring, Dangi informed.

This is for the first time the Chinese officials were arrested by Chhattisgarh police. With the arrest of three officials, seven people have so far been arrested in connection with the incident.

Balco chimney mishap: Three Chinese officials arrested in Korba- Hindustan Times

3 Chinese engineers held for Balco tower collapse - India - The Times of India

arrests have been made of officials from that company too.

 

[CS1.6]

Indians are responsible for the poor quality materials and poor design by Chinese engineers and project managers? Sub-contractors don't design and they only provide material that is paid for. It is all in the hands of China.

what? do you know what is subcontract?

of course subcontractors dont design, they have no such ability; the work they should do is the hard labour work with some skills, but unfortunately they did a lousy job;

anyway we always hear from india the complaints about the chinese labours took over their job, and bla bla bla, but now we all know how did they do the work; if they use a chinese sub contractor and chinese labours, this will definately not happen;

maybe the chinese company can not find a chinese sub-contractor overthere because goi don't give enough chinese worker visa;

 

[Armand2REP]

what? do you know what is subcontract?

of course subcontractors dont design, they have no such ability; the work they should do is the hard labour work with some skills, but unfortunately they did a lousy job;

anyway we always hear from india the complaints about the chinese labours took over their job, and bla bla bla, but now we all know how did they do the work; if they use a chinese sub contractor and chinese labours, this will definately not happen;

maybe the chinese company can not find a chinese sub-contractor overthere because goi don't give enough chinese worker visa;

I don't know who they subcontracted. Chinese or Indian, the subcontractor isn't important. The project managers are responsible for their work and the engineers for their designs.

 

[nimo_cn]

I am almost speechless now.

When Chinese company outsourced the chimney construction work to the Indian company, it meant they were on their own, they should be responsible for the quality of the chimney.

Chinese company had no direct responsibility for the poor quality of the chimney, it was Indian who built it, not Chinese. If there had to be any mistake that Chinese company had made, it was that instead of doing the work by themselves, they outsourced the construction work to an Indian company.

 

[hbogyt]

re

I tend to agree with L&T. The Chinese by way of controlling its currency and closed economy is killing competition. If India was to devalue its currency and fix it at say Rs 60 to a dollar and peg it at that level, i am sure other countries would cry hoarse.
What is also needed is a sustained international effort to put pressure on China to stop its unfair trade practice by means of controlling its currency and market.
But i read just a few days back that the officials of the CCP have made it clear that they do not intend to let its currency free anytime soon if at all.

Pegging isn't an unfair trade practice, it is just a practice. Countries didn't float their currencies because it was "fair", but because there was benefits to be gained from it. What is unfair is to want to have the benefit of a floating exchange rate, and at the same time deny others the benefit of a fixed exchange rate.

If pegging a currency was that advantageous, why didn't they just counter-peg the dollar to RMB at 1:1(using $ as an example)? presumably, the virtues of a floating exchange rate are too mouth watering to forgo.

Now, did the Indian government find genuine reward in floating exchange rate, or was it just following the fashion?


"Liable is a civil suit word, they are criminally negligent".

That's not the point, I'm not trying to be smart. As per the contract(if there was one), it was the Chinese personnels' duty to ensure the that the construction was done with due diligence, on both their and the sub-contractor's part(assuming there was one), as I gather from your post. So, even if it was the sub-contractor who stuffed up, the contractor would paid the price. But in the present context, it would appear that you meant that it was all the contractor's fault.

 

[nitesh]

nimo if you outsource some work that does not mean you are free from responsibility. You are responsible as the contract is with you. You can't blame sub contractor for your responsibilities

 

[hbogyt]

re

nimo if you outsource some work that does not mean you are free from responsibility. You are responsible as the contract is with you. You can't blame sub contractor for your responsibilities

Yes, just like the toy companies can't blame the Chinese factories for putting too much lead in their paint. Agreed.

Regardless, they are all morally culpable.

 

[no smoking]

What I love indian most is that they always can find someone else to blame.

India is producing high quality power equipment? Please tell me which country on earth was, is or will be ordering india's product in this sector?

India cannot produce enough equipment? Why don't tell those customer to wait until you have capacity?

Chinese closed economy? Please tell me how.

 

[ppgj]

What I love indian most is that they always can find someone else to blame.

blame?? funny. 45 people died in the chimney accident!! your engineers are arrested.

India is producing high quality power equipment? Please tell me which country on earth was, is or will be ordering india's product in this sector?

they export!!

MACHINIST - BHEL bags Rs 270 cr Power Plant order from Grodnoenergo, Belarus

L&T bags Rs 430 cr plant equipment export orders

The Hindu Business Line : Export orders of L&T engg unit up 125%

India cannot produce enough equipment? Why don't tell those customer to wait until you have capacity?

point is not about supply. it is about unfair trade stacked against indian own manufacturers and your unfair controlled exchange rate.

Chinese closed economy? Please tell me how.

if it is not market economy it is closed economy. everything from statistics to exchange rate is manipulated by your govt.

 

[hbogyt]

re

blame?? funny. 45 people died in the chimney accident!! your engineers are arrested.



they export!!

MACHINIST - BHEL bags Rs 270 cr Power Plant order from Grodnoenergo, Belarus

L&T bags Rs 430 cr plant equipment export orders

The Hindu Business Line : Export orders of L&T engg unit up 125%



point is not about supply. it is about unfair trade stacked against indian own manufacturers and your unfair controlled exchange rate.



if it is not market economy it is closed economy. everything from statistics to exchange rate is manipulated by your govt.

It's a market-command dual economy. Closed economy is where one has no international transactions. Every country manipulates exchange rate through monetary and fiscal policies, your point being?

 

[CS1.6]

nimo if you outsource some work that does not mean you are free from responsibility. You are responsible as the contract is with you. You can't blame sub contractor for your responsibilities

if the chinese company subcontract this work to chinese workers, indian would be very very upset and unhappy with this;

so, to take care of your feelings and demands, this chinese company subcontract the construction work to an indian company;

no matter how brilliant design, would need the good constructional craftmanship; with poor craftmanship and lack of good on-site management, the tragedy happened;

As the direct builder, you tell me the indian sub-contractor is not responsible at all??

why? because they are indians so they are not responsible?

sorry, i just dont buy this.

 

[ppgj]

if the chinese company subcontract this work to chinese workers, indian would be very very upset and unhappy with this;

irrespective of who sub contracts who, the primary contractor is responsible in addition to the sub contractor because they provide designs, oversee the entire construction. in this case the chinese engineers are the overseers.

so, to take care of your feelings and demands, this chinese company subcontract the construction work to an indian company;

no matter how brilliant design, would need the good constructional craftmanship; with poor craftmanship and lack of good on-site management, the tragedy happened;

so the chinese engineers who were overseeing this are not culpable?

As the direct builder, you tell me the indian sub-contractor is not responsible at all??

why? because they are indians so they are not responsible?

sorry, i just dont buy this.

read the links provided before. even men from the sub contractor group have also been arrested along with 3 chinese engineers.

 

[ppgj]

Every country manipulates exchange rate through monetary and fiscal policies, your point being?

point being -

read the original article in post #1.

indian govt taxes the local manufacturers while chinese imports attract zero tax. all that L&T boss is speaking about is either remove tax on indian equipment or tax the chinese imports.

now even if indian manufacturers give competitive prices, they will be still be costly with the taxes added and chinese imports are cheaper because they are artificially priced by your controlled exchange rate.

 

[nimo_cn]

point being -

indian govt taxes the local manufacturers while chinese imports attract zero tax. all that L&T boss is speaking about is either remove tax on indian equipment or tax the chinese imports.
[/B]

If the report was just like this, then i would have no problem at all. It is understandbale that a businessman complains about competitions from China.

But the case here is not so simple. The report is not a pure economy report at all, it is more like politically motivated. Look at the title of the report, China systematically killing Indian manufacturing, what the hell is that? Wow, it sounds like China is planning some conspiracy to destroy India.

What makes me sick is Indian medias always exaggerate and twist competitons from Chinese companies, sometimes tend to politicalize pure economy issues between China and India.

 

[ppgj]

If the report was just like this, then i have no problem at all. It is understandbale that a businessman complains about competitions from China.

fine.

But the case here is not so simple. The report is not a pure economy report at all, it is more like politically motivated. Look at the title of the report, China systematically killing Indian manufacturing, what the hell is that? Wow, it sounds like China is planning some conspiracy to destroy India.

the sentence you highlighted is what was told by the boss of L&T. check the original article.

if you have a problem with the title write to mods.

as for destroying, if the same continues against indian companies, it may well come true!!

What makes me sick is Indian medias always exaggerate and twist competitons from Chinese companies, sometimes tend to politicalize pure economy issues between China and India.

nimo. on the one hand you say you have no problem and now you say it is exaggeration!! make up your mind.

 

[nimo_cn]

nimo. on the one hand you say you have no problem and now you say it is exaggeration!! make up your mind.

Sorry, my poor english caused misunderstanding here. Obviously I need more practice.

I would not have problems if it was a pure economy report. But it is not, instead it is exaggerating and twisting, so i have problems.

 

[ppgj]

Sorry, my poor english caused misunderstanding here. Obviously I need more practice.

I would not have problems if it was a pure economy report. But it is not, instead it is exaggerating and twisting, so i have problems.

The Chamber spokesman said, "Chinese government provides incentives and rebates of 14% to it’s power plant manufacturers for exports and at the same time when such power equipment is imported into India, it does not suffer from customs duty or countervailing duty (CVD) and special CVD etc."

“On the other hand, Indian manufactured equipment, even when given ‘deemed export’ status for supply to specified projects, suffers duties and taxes to an extent of nearly 6% of the equipment cost”, further pointed out ASSOCHAM.

MACHINIST - ASSOCHAM wants Import Tariff Barriers on Chinese power equipment

hope that clears your economy query. it is from Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry of India (ASSOCHAM)

 

[hbogyt]

re

point being -

read the original article in post #1.

indian govt taxes the local manufacturers while chinese imports attract zero tax. all that L&T boss is speaking about is either remove tax on indian equipment or tax the chinese imports.

now even if indian manufacturers give competitive prices, they will be still be costly with the taxes added and chinese imports are cheaper because they are artificially priced by your controlled exchange rate.

What is unfair about controlled exchange rates? I don't see why you are upset about that.

 

[neo29]

We have so much cheap basic chinese goods in india from lamp, scissors, pencils etc. the indian public are buying chinese products because its cheap, we ourself are killing the indian manufacturing industry.

the GoI should stop over import of chinese good in india. only essentials like computer parts should be allowed.

 

[ppgj]

What is unfair about controlled exchange rates? I don't see why you are upset about that.

not me upset. EU and US are also upset. why?

On average a 10% decrease in income in the importing country would reduce China's exports by about 18%

As of September 2008, the RMB has depreciated by 35% against the euro. Our findings indicate that this depreciation has caused China's exports of clothing, furniture, and footwear to crowd out Europe's exports of these goods in world markets. European officials are upset about this, and may link the absence of exchange rate liberalization in China with a crackdown on free trade. While economically such a response might not make sense, politically it is understandable given the dislocation that exchange rate changes have caused in Europe.

RIETI - The Effect of Exchange Rate Changes on China's Labor-Intensive Manufacturing Exports

A substantial increase in the value of the Chinese currency is an essential component of reducing the imbalances but China has blocked any significant rise in the RMB by intervening massively in the foreign exchange markets, buying $15–20 billion per month for several years to hold its currency down.

China is thus overtly exporting unemployment to other countries and apparently sees its currency undervaluation as an off-budget export and job subsidy that, at least to date, has avoided effective international sanction.

By keeping its own currency undervalued, China has also deterred a number of other Asian countries from letting their currencies rise very much against the dollar for fear of losing competitive position against China.

Treasury Department has severely jeopardized its credibility on the issue by failing to carry out the requirements of current law to label China a "currency manipulator."

Testimony: The Chinese Exchange Rate and the US Economy