Weasel for the Tibetan Plateau

[pmaitra]

Weasel for the Tibetan Plateau

This is a multimedia-cum-discussion thread, that focuses on a military scenario, with the specific possibility of utility and quick-deployability of weasels, or small tracked vehicles, for warfare on the Tibetan Plateau.

This thread would typically come under the generic thread already posted (http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ucture-loopholes-scenarios-etc-solutions.html), however, I would like to focus on the weasel on the Tibetan Plateau in this thread.

I would invite everyone to contribute their ideas. I remember @Kunal Biswas had posted some fine pictures of weasels, some used by India, some proposed by TATA, and some available from abroad.

Kindly note: This is neither a tank thread, nor an APC/BMP/BMPT/BTR/LAV/etc., thread, because, they are larger than weasels, and might not be heli-portable.

 

[pmaitra]

I have been working on some rudimentary models since May, 2013. These are, by far, worse than the excellent models by @Dejawolf. These are presented here in four variants and are merely schematic in intent and purpose.

All four variants based upon the same chassis or hull.

With remote controlled 105mm Carl-Gustav RCL x 4 turret. May be replaced with ATGMs. (crew: 2)

MEDEVAC. (crew: 2)

With remote controlled Gatling-style 12.7mm MMG on remote controlled VSPU pod. (crew: 2)

With manually loaded auto positioning 81mm mortar. (crew: 2)

 

[pmaitra]

A quick and cheap way to deploy weasels in the heights of the Tibetan Plateau

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

good stuff............this is required........i hope our OFB and DRDO R&D also think on similar lines....

 

[pmaitra]

If the weight of each weasel can be kept under 4 metric tons, the additional armament would take it up to 5 metric tons, and would be seli-portable by Mil-17 helicopters. To gain additional altitude, to get to those heights, these helicopters could be equipped with jet-packs, so that the carrying capacity is not sacrificed with increasing the service ceiling.

Another way to get these weasels up would be to insert them into gliders. Then, several of these gliders could be harnessed in tandem, and then towed into air by an Ilyushin-76, and then released when close to the deployment area. Then, these gliders could be guided to land, whereupon, the weasels would have to crawl out of the gliders, and then join the fight immediately. (see this post)

 

[drkrn]

A quick and cheap way to deploy weasels in the heights of the Tibetan Plateau

how does the landed glider fly back?

 

[pmaitra]

how does the landed glider fly back?

It doesn't. It is discarded once it lands.

 

[Ray]

Sorry for being a party pooper.

The issue is that we cannot plan dropping equipment without looking at the sabcheez that will be in the operation.

When will it be required? And for whom and where will it be used and in what context?

What would be the operational plan and who will accept and man these stuff and so on.

That way, giving favourable wind conditions, we can launch glider borne troops into Tibet like what was done for Orde Wingate.

Would it be in conjunction with an operational thrust, and if so is it feasible and what will be its composition.

Or will it be considered as a part of Attack by Infiltration (though in an innovative mode)?

 

[pmaitra]

@Ray Sir, it will be:

Blitzkrieg Gewimmel,
Aus dem Himmel.

In other words, it will be a sudden and massive throng of hundreds of such gliders descending onto and beyond the enemy lines. Once they land, these weasels will crawl out and immediately start engaging the enemy or will start moving towards the enemy targets, disrupting their operations, sabotaging their thrusts, and assisting our approaching tank thrust. This is going to be their primary objective, much like that of the VDV. Holding ground and defending positions would be their secondary purpose.

 

[Ray]

@Ray Sir, it will be:

Blitzkrieg Gewimmel,
Aus dem Himmel.

In other words, it will be a sudden and massive throng of hundreds of such gliders descending onto and beyond the enemy lines. Once they land, these weasels will crawl out and immediately start engaging the enemy or will start moving towards the enemy targets, disrupting their operations, sabotaging their thrusts, and assisting our approaching tank thrust. This is going to be their primary objective, much like that of the VDV. Holding ground and defending positions would be their secondary purpose.

Interesting.

It will have to have three issues:

(a) One, isolate the Chinese behind their landings and block all roads to the location of landing.

(b) Two, be of adequate strength to take on the 'reserve' that will react against the landings.

(c) Three, simultaneously ensure a third force that can go address the areas to be sabotaged and interdicted.

Calculate that and check the force levels required, equipment required, logistics required, and the plan for uninterrupted re-supply.

To ease the problems, it will also require the mustering, organising of the Tibetan resistance before the launch!

Now, if these forces are also to attack the Chinese holding the border, it will add to the numbers and their logistics.

 

[Ray]

In my opinion, at best such a force can be used to rupture and open a 'corridor' once the main operational juggernaut is poised and ready to roll.

The problem is the terrain and the strategic surprise for such a juggernaut to be mustered, poised and ready to roll.

Notwithstanding, the idea is indeed most interesting and laudable.

 

[pmaitra]

In my opinion, at best such a force can be used to rupture and open a 'corridor' once the main operational juggernaut is poised and ready to roll.

These weasel units can also be used for flanking, apart from those we have discussed.

The problem is the terrain and the strategic surprise for such a juggernaut to be mustered, poised and ready to roll.

Yes, and that is why I chose tracked vehicles, i.e. weasels. Otherwise, we can do the same thing with jeeps. We have used jeep mounted Carl-Gustav for years. Moreover, I thought of the glider based airlift, as opposed to airlifting them to the ALGs, so as to retain the element of surprise.

Notwithstanding, the idea is indeed most interesting and laudable.

Thanks.

 

[ice berg]

Here I thought air operations like this ended with operation Market garden.

Against a well defended enemy with an intact AD network? Good luck!

I take you will not be among the first one to land(If you even are alive when you land, that is)

 

[W.G.Ewald]

M50 Ontos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ontos, officially the Rifle, Multiple 106 mm, Self-propelled, M50, was an American light armored tracked anti-tank vehicle developed in the 1950s. It mounted six M40 106 mm recoilless rifles as its main armament, which could be fired in rapid succession against single targets to guarantee a kill.

Originally conceived as a fast tank killer, it was employed by US Marines who consistently reported excellent results when used for direct fire support against infantry during the Vietnam War. Its mobility and firepower were proven in numerous battles and operations. Produced in limited numbers and largely expended towards the end of the conflict, the Ontos was removed from service in 1969.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

how does the landed glider fly back?

Gliders have always been disposable, that is why you never see them even in a museum.

 

[arnabmit]

But how would a transport aircraft with gliders strung up avoid enemy AD?

Isn't it only viable after Air Superiority and DEAD is achieved? And if they are achieved, then why Weasels? Proper IFVs with superior firepower could be airdropped from C-130s and the Il-76s and C-17s

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Ilyushin Il-32 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ilyushin Il-32 was a Soviet heavy military glider developed after World War II to deliver 7,000 kg (15,000 lb) of cargo. To facilitate loading and unloading the glider's nose and tail sections were hinged to swing sideways. The Il-32 required a four-engined aircraft to tow it safely; it was canceled when it became clear that no such tug was going to be available after the Tupolev Tu-75 and Ilyushin Il-18 programs were both canceled because of shortages of their intended Shvetsov ASh-73 engines.

 

[t_co]

An interesting idea, but the air density at such altitudes wouldn't support the kind of weight you want to load into those gliders.

http://www.memphis-soaring.org/Training/faaChap_05.pdf

If you made the vehicles lighter to compensate, the sacrifice in armament or armor might make these vehicles so underpowered or thin-skinned as to be useless.

Finally, as @arnabmit has mentioned, this would be only effective once air defenses are gone. Transport aircraft towing dozens of gliders show up on any decent radar from nearly 300km away, and on the latest AD radars from over 600km away. They would be big, fat targets to any PLAAF fighter.

This money would be much better spent on the IAF, whose Mig-21s lack the range to do any sort of interdiction strikes or escort into Tibet, and whose Su-30 MKIs would be hauling heavy bombs and fuel up an altitude gradient into swarms of Chinese fighters and AD networks.

@W.G. Ewald The Ontos was pretty effective against light infantry in close-range jungle firefights. A lightweight vehicle like that would be much less effective at the extended visibility ranges of the Tibetan plateau. Even one attack helicopter or tank or even missile-carrying drone would savage an entire company of such vehicles - and with the aforementioned radar visibility of the transport aircraft, it would be a simple C4ISR exercise to shift the appropriate assets in place to knock them out.

 

[Ray]

The transport aircraft, can fly at the requisite height to release the gliders for travel to the distance required.

The aircraft can release the gliders well within own territory.

Wooden gliders have no or little radar signature.

 

[t_co]

The transport aircraft, can fly at the requisite height to release the gliders for travel to the distance required.

The aircraft can release the gliders well within own territory.

Wooden gliders have no or little radar signature.

First:

The predominantly wooden deHavilland Mosquito was one of the first aircraft to be designed with this capability in mind. Against World War II radar systems, that approach was fairly successful, but it would not be appropriate today. First, wood and, by extension, composite materials, are not transparent to radar, although they may be less reflective than metal; and second, the degree to which they are transparent merely amplifies the components that are normally hidden by the outer skin. These include engines, fuel, avionics packages, electrical and hydraulic circuits, and people.

Second, launch height and speed increase as the landing zone altitude increases. To land a heavy glider 50km into Tibetan plateau would require something like a 10-14,000m release height at over 500kmh. At that altitude and speed, the transport aircraft would be visible at long ranges, even if it were in its own territory.