PLAN can't enter IOR and attack India thats plain suicide.What we are thinking is cutting your fuel line and choke you .PLAN is nowhere in a position for a slanging match with IN in IOR (with or without USNavy assistance).By the way you and i aren't qualified enough to bash Ray sir.Esp us chairborne generals
248 Arjun can barely be called an induction in contrast with 1500+ T90.
Considering your own army is procuring T90, i believe they will choose T90 instead of Arjun if they want to replace these tanks.
Compared with T90, Arjun is cumbersome and expensive, and most importantly insecure.
Meaning it is not finished yet, after it is finished we can discuss the possiblity of selling it to others.
I don't want to disparage Indian weapons any more, it is very inhuman to do that. Plus, i don't have much knowledge with respect to Indian defence industry.
But in consideration of the fact that most main battle weapons inducted by Indian military are imported from foreign countres, you really need to do harder to convince others to believe your indigenous weapons are really that advanced.
You sound as if China only has MiG copies, but i am not going to controvert that, because i don't want to do another Sino-Indo comparison.
The reason i replied to this thread is to refute Ray's view that it is not going to be a standalone situtaion for India if a Sino-Indo conflict breaks out. I am contending it is very likely to be a standalone situation. I am not talking about who will win if it is a standalone situation, so please hold your horses before you are trying to argue how mighty Indian military is.
OK, i will not refute this one because it seems to be plausible.
Then how about this one, China promises to grant Taiwan independence in exchange for its assistance to fight India? Are you 100% percent Taiwan will turn that down?
So what, just because China lost some islands then China is weakened? Is that going to have any impact on a war between China and India?
We are talking about a long term competition between China and India. We are talking about a war which most of the time will not last long.
Yes, then why people here are talking so surely this is not a standalone situation.
Are you sure about what other countries will react? Are you really so sure all of them will take India's side?
What if US takes China's side? You will say that is impossible. Oh, really? What if China give US an offer, China fights the war and US reaps the prize? That is a good offer, isn't it? Still so sure US will say no?
What if we do make that gamble, and Russia realy sits tight and does nothing? Are you going to deny that possibility?
Well, that depends how good your military is.
To sum up, it is possible India is gonna to fight alone.
Induction is induction irrespective of numbers. The reason T-90 was chosen becoz the the army was not happy with arjun performance and allegations of kickbacks in T-90 deal. Nevertheless Arjun though delayed proved its worth in the comparative trials when pitted against T-90. The reason army wants no more arjun is becoz they want a next generation tank that Drdo working on. Similarly they dont want anymore T-90's.
If India and China are at war except pakistan no other country will be there for china. Same case may be for India, though it may get some moral support and weapons supply from US.
India may be importing its hardware but working indigenously too. China may be indigenously making its military hardware but at the cost of reverse engineering and copying.
1962 was different scenario with most of our attention was in pak border and kashmir. No one really bothered about the eastern front and hence no development in any field from roads to basic amenities to soldiers. Nehru was over confident that China will not do anything aggressively and even did not bother to send backup to the troops after his advisors informed him of chinese prepartions.
Indian army equipped with WW2 enfield rifles and 10k soldiers, no basic amenities, no means of communication and co-ordinations, no strong outposts against 60k PLA soldiers with sub machine guns and grenades and completely prepared for battle. Geographically PLA was in a more favorable situation. Any one can do the math on who will win before the war starts. Still the ill equipped India army did giving a challenge to the PLA.
Its true that the foolish Nehru applied the forward policy without preparing for consequences and India and its soldiers paid a price for it.
The scenario is different today. Even PLA knows it. Either side knows that if war happens the result will be inconsequential but the destruction will be vast and hence avoid it.
Actually thanks to the 1962 war that India realized its vulnerability and brought sweeping changes in the Forces.
ROHTANG PASS, India — The name of this white-knuckle pass, one of the highest in the world, means “pile of corpses” in the Tibetan language. Every year a few dozen people die trying to cross these spiky Himalayan peaks.
For six months the road is snowbound, putting at the mercy of the elements tens of thousands of Indian troops posted beyond it in this remote but strategically important region along India’s long and disputed border with China.
In the past decade, as China has furiously built up its military and civilian infrastructure on its side of the border, the Rohtang Pass on the Indian side has stood as mute testimony to India’s inability and unwillingness to master its far-flung and rugged outermost reaches.
But now, India is racing to match its rival for regional and global power, building and bolstering airstrips and army outposts, shoring up neglected roads and — finally, decades after it was first proposed — building a tunnel to bypass the deadly Rohtang Pass.
In June, work started on the ambitious project, which will take five years and require boring five miles through the Pir Panjal range. Several other tunnels, which would allow all-weather access to Ladakh, which abuts the Tibetan Plateau, are also in the works.
“What India is belatedly seeking to do is to improve its defenses by upgrading its logistics,” said Brahma Chellaney, an analyst who tracks the India-China relationship at the Center for Policy Research in New Delhi, in an e-mail. “By building new railroads, airports and highways in Tibet, China is now in a position to rapidly move additional forces to the border to potentially strike at India at a time of its choosing.”
As a result, he said, “The Sino-Indian border remains more unstable than the Pakistani-Indian frontier.”
India and China are hardly enemies, but much of the 2,521-mile border they share is disputed or ill marked. The two countries fought a brief but bloody border war in 1962, and while these days they have, on the surface, a mostly cordial relationship, it is marked by tension over border disputes and the future of Tibet and its leader, the Dalai Lama, who lives in exile in India.
China’s push to develop its infrastructure on its side of the border — including an all-weather railway to Tibet that includes the world’s highest tunnel, at 16,000 feet — is viewed with considerable suspicion in India.
For much of its history, India has regarded the Himalayas as a form of protection, not a barrier to be overcome, said Rajeswari Rajagopalan, an expert in India-China relations at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi.
“The Indian side has been very slow to develop the border areas,” Ms. Rajagopalan said. “They believed if you improved the infrastructure it would only allow the Chinese to walk into your territory. This was very foolish and naïve.”
Three hundred miles of winding road lead from the town of Manali, through the verdant Kullu Valley, to Ladakh, an alpine desert that abuts the Tibetan plateau.
Tens of thousands of Indian Army troops are stationed among Ladakh’s barren peaks, and the region borders several potential trouble spots, including Aksai Chin, a region that India claims as part of its territory but that China administers. North of Ladakh is the Siachen Glacier, a river of barren ice that India and Pakistan have fought over intermittently since the 1980s. Both countries maintain outposts on the glacier, which sits at an altitude of 20,000 feet.
During the summer, thousands of trucks, laden with supplies to last the harsh mountain winters, rumble up the two roads that lead to Ladakh, from Manali and Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian-administered Kashmir.
The road from Ladakh to Srinagar is also closed in the winter, and because of its proximity to the Line of Control that splits Kashmir between India and Pakistan, Indian officials worry that the road can easily be cut, as it was in 1999, when the two countries clashed at Kargil.
Gurmeet Kanwal, a retired brigadier who runs the Center for Land Warfare Studies, a New Delhi research institution, said India could not afford to be cut off from its most vulnerable reaches half of the year.
“As long as we have these territorial disputes you cannot rule out another border conflict,” Brigadier Kanwal said. “We would like to make sure that we can deploy our forces in the right quantities in the right places.”
The tunnel has been on the drawing board for decades, said P. K. Mahajan, the chief engineer on the $320 million project. He first became involved as a young engineer in 1988, when he helped carry out a feasibility study, five years after the project was first proposed by Indira Gandhi, then the prime minister.
“It is only now that these projects are seeing the light of day,” Mr. Mahajan said.
The challenges of building a long tunnel in the rough environment of the Pir Panjal are enormous. The Himalayas are the world’s youngest mountain range. They shift and grind, still moving, expanding and shrinking.
That makes life tough for people like Thomas Riedel, a German contractor working at the north end of the tunnel. Because no one is sure what kind of rock will be found inside the mountain, the tunnel will be built using a painstaking method of blasting and digging, rather than the tunnel-boring machines that have revolutionized tunnel construction in recent years.
“Nobody can look inside the mountain,” Mr. Riedel said. “That is where we will find problems.”
Just weeks into what will be at least five years of digging, the workers encountered their first unexpected obstacle: a foot of snow. In June.
The tunnel will sit beneath more than a mile of snow-covered rock for much of its length. Ventilation will pose a huge problem.
People who live on the other side of the Rohtang Pass say the tunnel will transform their lives.
“For six months, we are prisoners,” said Chetan Devi, a schoolteacher who lives in a town beyond the pass. “In the winter, you have to risk your life to go to Manali.”
The tunnel will turn an ordeal of several hours, even in the summer, into a brisk 20-minute trip.
Virender Sharma, the chief government official in Kyelang, the main town of the Lahaul Valley, which sits between Manali and Ladakh, said that last winter 21 people died trying to cross the Rohtang Pass on foot. People were found frozen solid, he said, “sitting with rucksacks on their backs, water bottles at their sides, but they were dead.”
Winters in the Lahaul Valley are a miserable affair, he said.
“During summer, it seems very pleasant,” Mr. Sharma said. “In the winter, there is no light. No vegetables. No mail. Nothing to do in the evening. If there is an emergency, you are practically at the mercy of God.”
For the engineers building the tunnel, it is not merely a matter of logistics, but also a matter of national pride.
“Once this tunnel is complete, it will be an engineering marvel for the whole nation,” Mr. Mahajan said.
let's not forget that our army is only 50% equipped to fight a war as per it's own reports. we lack everything-modern howitzer's, carabines, helmets, bullet proof vests, helicopter's, night vision devices, grenades etc. we are not capable of taking on pakistan at this stage let alone china. we are worse off than we were in 1999 during kargil. during kargil itself the then govt. had to make several emergency purchases of ammunition stocks, spares etc just to conquer a few mountain peaks. just what has this UPA done other than blacklisting all possible companies in the last 5 years? we are just a lame duck now. should the pakis attempt another kargil type adveture we would pay a very heavy price today. Pak has more than 500 self propelled howitzer's while we dont have even a single one. they have already started inducting the 155mm/52caliber howitzers with more than 50km range while our artillery induction has been postponed at best for another 10 years.
In 1947, 1965, 1971, and again in 1999, Pakistan thought we Indian kafirs were unprepared for war, and thought a combination of racial superiority and superior strategy would allow a quick Pakistani victory.
As you can see, we kafirs proved them wrong everytime. And if they dare try something again, they will be proved wrong once more.
NEVER underestimate the Indian Army mate. You can say we are lacking this, we are lacking that, but every army has its problems. Even the almighty invincible Pakistani Army. It's not just what you have, its how you use it that counts.
India alone can not only counter attack China over the Himalayas, but also more! Even in the sea scenario in the IOR, the IN has the capability to thwart Chinese designs since China does not have a blue water navy of consequence.
India still has much to do there (IOR), not that the Chinese have a blue water capability either. Therefore, China in the IOR remains a pipedream as of date and quite a few years more. But then, the IN will also be dynamically enhanced.
In the IOR, the USN will play, as it plays a major role. India does not require the US aid, but then the US will always expect IN to augment its resources, given the strategic understanding the US has with India. Apparently, much to China’s discomfort, India and the US seem to have a common strategic goal.
A strategic understanding does not mean that India leans backward to thwart Chinese designs in India’s backyard, be it land, sea or air.
In a potential Sino Indian conflict, there is no doubt that there will be adequate backer from the free world for India, whether India wants it or not!
India is not quite a hopeless country as your fear prompts you to call it! It is full of hope. Alexander Pope had written – hope spring eternal in the human breast. That is true, at least in the free world. Without hope what is there in life, more so since none is a soothsayer.
In the last Sino Indian conflict nothing happened in Tibet or Xingjian. True. But today the scenario is different. Without a conflict, China is having massive issues with the Tibetans and the Uighurs. They refuse to become Hans or have their resources looted. Not really a wet dream. If it were, then China would not have been so ham handed to quelling the rebellions!
it will be tough for our soldiers to fight with obsolete and inadequate equipment. yes no doubt the Indian army is incredibly brave and will emerge victorious but why should we needlessly sacrifice the lives of our young soldiers? cant we provide them with adequate equipment at least? why is thousand's of crores of the budget meant for the army being returned by antony to the finance ministry every year? cant we spend the allotted money for the benefit of our soldiers? how long will we treat our soldiers as expendable and throw them into the sacrificial fire? why are we lagging behind pak and even bangladesh when it comes to weapons acquisitions?
You said that we dont have enough helmes, bullet proof vests or carabines for our soldiers ,i.e.,toequip our 1.4 million army. But tell me one thing that do you think that if a war occured then all of our 1.4 million soldiers will jump into that.
Dont worry about the basic equipments because we have it in proper quantity as required by the army. Yes we may not have those 1.4 million bulletproof vests of type 3-A but we have them in sufficient number to counter any insurgency that occurs on our borders. About the artillary, dont worry because not every war is like that of Kargil that the presence of artillary in very very important.