Military dead against permanent commission for women across the board

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W.G.Ewald

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then quote the parts you think was insightful, inspite of a " Serving With Women Is Like Eating Pork" header. I'm not here to read every of the 20 links you posted. I or anyone can't be blamed for avoiding reading " Serving With Women Is Like Eating Pork" topics.
I think the following excerpt is worth consideration. The pork reference is explained here, and it is not irrational.

The Israeli army's policy of integrating women into combat units threatens to renew religious-secular tensions. Hitherto, female soldiers were utilized as weapons instructors and in support services, which was acceptable to the religious soldiers who have been assuming an ever-increasing portion of the combat burden. But the new policy, strongly endorsed by Israeli feminists, has so alarmed religious Zionists that they have warned they will boycott units where gender integration undermines religious standards of sexual modesty. The Israeli army is not a "progressive" American university that can dictate residence in a coed dorm for undergrads. Feminists may see integrated units as a steppingstone to achieving gender equality in Israel. But this equality will be tainted if it is secured by trampling the tenaciously held values of others and thwarting the no-less-important desideratum of religious-secular integration. UltraOrthodox leaders fully enjoy the discomfiture of religious Zionists and are brandishing the furor as proof that religious observance and military service do not mix. A situation that creates intimacy between the sexes, such as sharing the same tank or cramped quarters on a missile boat, is utterly unacceptable to an observant soldier. It is tanta-mount to compelling him to eat pork. Some secularists mistakenly regard mixed combat units as a libido endurance test. If the observant soldier were sincere in his commitments, they argue, then rubbing shoulders and other limbs with women wouldn,t lead to other things. But traditional Judaism not only objects to the ultimate repercussions of mixed military service, it opposes the day-to-day reality of such units, which creates an intimacy that should be reserved for married life. (Plato and Sir Thomas More believed the prospective bride and groom should view each other in the flesh, since appraising a marriage partner was as serious as purchasing a horse. Religious Judaism would never view a woman's body on the level of horse flesh or as a vehicle to be test-driven.) The army has promised a commission to study the issue, but the higher-ups are understandably distracted by other matters, and the crisis is building up. The rabbis who have attacked the new policy in radio interviews are themselves combat officers who prepare their pupils for combat service. Yet by allowing itself to be intimidated by radical feminists, the army is displaying contempt for an increasingly important reservoir of military talent. Given the degree of mutual suspicion between Israel's political subcultures, some religious Zionists view gender integration as an attempt to block the rise of religious Zionist officers. My take is that the army is clumsily clutching at political correctness, but if it doesn,t resolve the issue immediately, it will inadvertently corroborate the conspiracy theorists. At the same time, the issue must be defined accurately. Religious Zionism justifiably rejects a Hobson's choice between abdicating its moral values or acquiescing in isolation within separate military units. However, any attempt to broaden this defensive reaction into a blanket veto on a combat role for women is indefensible. Religious Zionists have no more right to blackball female combatants than radical feminists have to shove mixed units down their throats. If Israeli women want to serve in combat units, their individual choice deserves respect and encouragement. There is no reason the army can,t establish exclusively female combat units officered by women. The performance of such units will be objectively evaluated. This would be preferable to the current situation where anonymous officers charge that women unfit for combat are retained to propitiate the feminist furies in the media. All-female units will also severely curtail incidents of sexual harassment.
 

JayATL

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What are you talking about? Why are you comparing US and India? Does US excel over India in all respects when it comes to women? Ponder after reading below:

USA:
President - de facto and de jure head of state. (A woman, ever? None till date.)

India:
President - de jure head of state. (A woman, ever? Yes.)
Prime Minister - de facto head of state. (A woman, ever? Yes.)

And prima facie, why do I keep hearing, 'Look at that car backing up, must be woman behind the wheels!' or 'Woomen cannot drive?' Yes, I have heard this from American men, way too many times to keep count of.
did you bother read the quote I was replying to? before posting?
 

Bangalorean

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What are you talking about? Why are you comparing US and India? Does US excel over India in all respects when it comes to women? Ponder after reading below:

USA:
President - de facto and de jure head of state. (A woman, ever? None till date.)

India:
President - de jure head of state. (A woman, ever? Yes.)
Prime Minister - de facto head of state. (A woman, ever? Yes.)

And prima facie, why do I keep hearing, 'Look at that car backing up, must be woman behind the wheels!' or 'Woomen cannot drive?' Yes, I have heard this from American men, way too many times to keep count of.
You are right. Even I have heard American and European drivers comment on women drivers that way. Even I do it, and on Indian roads, sadly it is true most of the time. From 10 years, we've all been receiving chain e-mails on women drivers "funny images" and such stuff from Europe and the US.

This is not a problem of "liberal feminism". The problem is that of a condescending prick who keeps trying to impress upon the "natives" that they should stop being "backward", and try to be "forward thinking" like where he comes from. And it doesn't help that he is a turd who doesn't know how to talk normally, and has no knowledge of conditions and constraints in India.
 
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pmaitra

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how do you know he is more experienced? And experienced in what? And since when did " older" equate to some guarantee of speaking with sense and clarity? Was it the part he quoted anecdotes of a woman cribbing about her nail being broken- as a defining moment(s) of his argument of women should not be in the military?

When did serving in the military equate to being smarter? Given his anecdotes it proves he is jarhead... BTW most of the military personnel are jarheads, high-school educated.

was it not the "Older and been in the military Geroge Bush" not take us into the Iraq war? ...

I never get this " oh he is in the miltary-- shoot my family is too!" My wife as I have stated here is a Marine ( there is no such thing as ex-marine as she says), my family members are in the Navy. Marine core, airforce serving right now! -- should that give me the right to make anecdotes as proof postive?
I do not know whether he is really experienced or not, but then neither do I know where you are coming from. If you must disagree, why not say, 'I beg to differ...' instead of going like 'Yes- you anecdotes are bullshit, you are sharing cases that are not only not the norm-. but disrespectful of any man's army' or 'Given his anecdotes it proves he is jarhead... BTW most of the military personnel are jarheads, high-school educated' with horrible grammar and no sense of punctuation, leave alone general courtesy.
 
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pmaitra

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did you bother read the quote I was replying to? before posting?
How about I throw this back at you (emboldened)?

then quote the parts you think was insightful, inspite of a " Serving With Women Is Like Eating Pork" header. I'm not here to read every of the 20 links you posted. I or anyone can't be blamed for avoiding reading " Serving With Women Is Like Eating Pork" topics.
In this lesson you learn: Treat others the way you want to be treated.
 

JayATL

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I think the following excerpt is worth consideration. The pork reference is explained here, and it is not irrational.
i need a hubble telescope the read that! But I strained to read the first line and stopped

" The Israeli army's policy of integrating women into combat units threatens to renew religious-secular tensions"

That is honestly, a stupendously ignorant statement.... Its beneath my intelligence to read further because it defines the tone. I mean really? Allowing women in combat = non secular now?

I mean " come on man" --- it's insulting to even a toads brain let alone a human's with an iota of education.....
 

Bangalorean

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^^ What's really insulting, is to "debate" with a "jarhead" who is so stuck upon his own point of view, that he won't even take the simple step of reading a few lines to understand what the other party is trying to convey.

Had you read the next two lines, you would have seen that religious Zionists are the ones who oppose it, since they feel it " undermines sexual modesty". Personally I haven't read more than that, but maybe you should actually read the full thing, or at least skim through it if you intend to discuss it.
 

JayATL

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How about I throw this back at you (emboldened)?



In this lesson you learn: Treat others the way you want to be treated.
you quote one post of mine and reply to it...

- i asked- did you read the quote I was replying to?

-- THEN instead of reading the original quote I replied , you pick up and post a whole different post - hmmmm
 

pmaitra

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i need a hubble telescope the read that! But I strained to read the first line and stopped
Firstly, you need to know that it is supposed to be a microscope, not a telescope.

Secondly, you need to learn to use Ctrl+Scroll.

Thirdly, since many people, including jarheads, do not know how to magnify text if they are too small, I have re-quoted that for you, so that you don't need a telescope or microscope:
The Israeli army's policy of integrating women into combat units threatens to renew religious-secular tensions. Hitherto, female soldiers were utilized as weapons instructors and in support services, which was acceptable to the religious soldiers who have been assuming an ever-increasing portion of the combat burden. But the new policy, strongly endorsed by Israeli feminists, has so alarmed religious Zionists that they have warned they will boycott units where gender integration undermines religious standards of sexual modesty. The Israeli army is not a "progressive" American university that can dictate residence in a coed dorm for undergrads. Feminists may see integrated units as a steppingstone to achieving gender equality in Israel. But this equality will be tainted if it is secured by trampling the tenaciously held values of others and thwarting the no-less-important desideratum of religious-secular integration. UltraOrthodox leaders fully enjoy the discomfiture of religious Zionists and are brandishing the furor as proof that religious observance and military service do not mix. A situation that creates intimacy between the sexes, such as sharing the same tank or cramped quarters on a missile boat, is utterly unacceptable to an observant soldier. It is tanta-mount to compelling him to eat pork. Some secularists mistakenly regard mixed combat units as a libido endurance test. If the observant soldier were sincere in his commitments, they argue, then rubbing shoulders and other limbs with women wouldn,t lead to other things. But traditional Judaism not only objects to the ultimate repercussions of mixed military service, it opposes the day-to-day reality of such units, which creates an intimacy that should be reserved for married life. (Plato and Sir Thomas More believed the prospective bride and groom should view each other in the flesh, since appraising a marriage partner was as serious as purchasing a horse. Religious Judaism would never view a woman's body on the level of horse flesh or as a vehicle to be test-driven.) The army has promised a commission to study the issue, but the higher-ups are understandably distracted by other matters, and the crisis is building up. The rabbis who have attacked the new policy in radio interviews are themselves combat officers who prepare their pupils for combat service. Yet by allowing itself to be intimidated by radical feminists, the army is displaying contempt for an increasingly important reservoir of military talent. Given the degree of mutual suspicion between Israel's political subcultures, some religious Zionists view gender integration as an attempt to block the rise of religious Zionist officers. My take is that the army is clumsily clutching at political correctness, but if it doesn,t resolve the issue immediately, it will inadvertently corroborate the conspiracy theorists. At the same time, the issue must be defined accurately. Religious Zionism justifiably rejects a Hobson's choice between abdicating its moral values or acquiescing in isolation within separate military units. However, any attempt to broaden this defensive reaction into a blanket veto on a combat role for women is indefensible. Religious Zionists have no more right to blackball female combatants than radical feminists have to shove mixed units down their throats. If Israeli women want to serve in combat units, their individual choice deserves respect and encouragement. There is no reason the army can,t establish exclusively female combat units officered by women. The performance of such units will be objectively evaluated. This would be preferable to the current situation where anonymous officers charge that women unfit for combat are retained to propitiate the feminist furies in the media. All-female units will also severely curtail incidents of sexual harassment.
 

Ray

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I take it that some religions are very protective about their ancient rulings over the interaction of their women with society.
 

JayATL

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^^ What's really insulting, is to "debate" with a "jarhead" who is so stuck upon his own point of view, that he won't even take the simple step of reading a few lines to understand what the other party is trying to convey.

Had you read the next two lines, you would have seen that religious Zionists are the ones who oppose it, since they feel it " undermines sexual modesty". Personally I haven't read more than that, but maybe you should actually read the full thing, or at least skim through it if you intend to discuss it.
err eyah---and the next two lines are equally absurd- that it " undermines sexual modesty:...

so it goes from being threating secularity to threating sexual modesty--

That to me is a conversation heading down into the gutters - vs an uplifting read

what part of the " I stopped because I suspected be tone to go downhill "- was difficult to grasp for ya?
 

W.G.Ewald

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i need a hubble telescope the read that! But I strained to read the first line and stopped

" The Israeli army's policy of integrating women into combat units threatens to renew religious-secular tensions"

That is honestly, a stupendously ignorant statement.... Its beneath my intelligence to read further because it defines the tone. I mean really? Allowing women in combat = non secular now?

I mean " come on man" --- it's insulting to even a toads brain let alone a human's with an iota of education.....
Be that as it may, I noticed something when I went back to the original article cited at the beginning of this thread. It starts off by saying that Indian Forces are lax in a particular area - number of females serving, and the roles they occupy - in comparison to the United States. Much of what I have seen in 2 months here rejects the idea that India should be aping other countries, especially the United States. I believe that may be the reason the discussion has become so heated.

It begs the question, why should Indian Forces mimic US Forces if Indians object so strenuously to the policies and past relations of the US with India?

Can you address that in a focussed way? No entreaties to Indian godesses of war, please.
 

pmaitra

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Jay,

Is it bone chillingly cold in Georgia that you were forced to gulp down a peg too much and post vitriolic comments here in DFI?

You are like the Duke of Saxony's nephew (ref: Merchant of Venice by William Shakespeare).
 

W.G.Ewald

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To be frank, you could not even trust them with men PoWs either. :rofl:
That image of the scene in Lawrence of Arabia between Jose Ferrer and Peter O'Toole appears to me here.:shocked:
 

pankaj nema

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Indian Army Men WILL not orders from women .

So women please either take whatever you are getting or simply dont come

Any change is based on NEED

If the army needs people ie if there is a shortage ONLY then rules will be changed

And no matter how many programmes that witch called BARKHA Dutt does on this issue
army will not budge BECAUSE it is not in the nature of Armed forces to budge
 

JayATL

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Firstly, you need to know that it is supposed to be a microscope, not a telescope.

Secondly, you need to learn to use Ctrl+Scroll.

Thirdly, since many people, including jarheads, do not know how to magnify text if they are too small, I have re-quoted that for you, so that you don't need a telescope or microscope:
Congrats- Hubble is no longer know as a TELESCOPE but an microscope... and thank you for magnifying it. Maybe you had it on " more older and experienced" writer

-- I had it( with)- on the garbage it spoke within ...
 
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Iamanidiot

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It's not Aping the US it is all about what works the best for India.Wars in the Indian subcontinent are still WW-2 affairs where no quarter is given and no quarter is taken in such a scenario keeping the women on the frontline is absurd beyond absurd.Anybody remember the Nachiketa affair
 

JayATL

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Indian Army Men WILL not orders from women .So women please either take whatever you are getting or simply dont come

Any change is based on NEED

If the army needs people ie if there is a shortage ONLY then rules will be changed

And no matter how many programmes that witch called BARKHA Dutt does on this issue
army will not budge BECAUSE it is not in the nature of Armed forces to budge
see what I highlighted? Let this be an educational moment. There used to be a PM called Indira Ghandhi .. she was this thing called " a woman" and the " chief " over the Indian military- who gave many " war" orders to them. :rolleyes:
 
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