Indian Mig 21 BISON v/s PAF JF 17 , who has an edge.

mukul_2210

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An Israeli updated mig 21 is agruabally the best interceptor that India has . and on going up gradation, mig bison might occupy many more years as uncertainity still looms over Tejas. I was really amazed too see bison reviews on world forum and war games reviews ...
 

mukul_2210

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An Israeli updated mig 21 is agruabally the best interceptor that India has . and on going up gradation, mig bison might occupy many more years as uncertainity still looms over Tejas. I was really amazed too see bison reviews on world forum and war games reviews ..
 

utubekhiladi

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....The F-15 pilots used their simulated combat experience against the thrust vectoring capability of the Lockheed Martin F-22 to exploit a vulnerability of the Su-30 in a hard turn, the pilot said."So we start to pull in on him, and then all of a sudden you start to see the [Su-30's aft-] end kick down and he starts doing vectored thrust,

"the pilot says...But now he starts falling out of the sky. He's falling out of the sky so fast that you don't even have to go up," the pilot adds. "You just have to pull back on the stick a little bit, pull the throttle, go to guns and come in and drill his brains out."
does he really think that Su30mki will let anything come that close? i.e that's the range of the enemies machine gun?

:D anyways this discussion is off topic.
 

badguy2000

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after reading the above replies, I think that it is stupid for Indian to buy MACA and Su30,after IAF has MIg21 bis.
 

JBH22

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after reading the above replies, I think that it is stupid for Indian to buy MACA and Su30,after IAF has MIg21 bis.
haha good one but then we get patriotic about the Mig-21Bison we might even dream that its stealth and can shoot down the F-22
 

shuvo@y2k10

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they performance of mig-21 bison is indeed exceptional in iaf service.but i still feel that for interceptor role iaf should have mig-31 as it is the fastest fighter plane in the world.
 

utubekhiladi

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they performance of mig-21 bison is indeed exceptional in iaf service.but i still feel that for interceptor role iaf should have mig-31 as it is the fastest fighter plane in the world.
did you mean Mig-35?
 

indian_sukhoi

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Mig 21 bison is a high speed interceptor .It is very useful for point defence and Combat air patrol roles
Excatly,......The primary use of Mig-21s by IAF will be using it has a Interceptor Aircrafts.

So in this Scenerio, The JF-17s and Mig-21s will go head-to-head only when PAF decides to go for a preemptive strikes over Indian Territory.

Basically the Ground Radar stations will guides the interceptor(Mig-21) aircraft to an airborne target. The Mig-21 will have a clear advantage to the JF-17s due to its specifications in climb, speed and T/w ratio. The IAF MiG-21s will have Phalcan AWACS to support and even Aerostat radars which can detect better than ground-based radars.
The AWACS can give the Defending aircrafts a major advantage during the interception by allowing them to sneak up on enemy aircraft without giving themselves away by using their own radar sets. With the AWACS suppport the MiG can sneak back of the intruder's tail position without being noticed and fire its missiles.

Based on the Sub-Continent scenerio, The Mig-21s will not go head-to-head with JF-17s. IAF use them only for Interception roles during War Time. Other than that, Mig-21s are no match for Jf-17s if ur comparing its specification or capabilities etc.

Mig 21 Bisons after upgradation are still very potent and can easily knock out the Junk fighter JF 17
Mig-21 is a tried and tested a/c on the other hand Junk Fighter-17 is a joke at which even Chinese PLAAF din't laugh!! What do we know about the electronics and avionics of the Junk Fighter? recently, we have seen failed state pakistanis running after the French and Britons, which tells us an interesting story regarding whats inside this piece of Junk!!:)
Common guys,
How can J17s is a failure, when it surpassed every requirement of PAF???

Any Armed Forces looks upon its requirements and necessity. Pakistan Airforce wanted a Modern multi-role combat aircraft which is Cheap as an inexpensive replacement for its large fleet of aging Mirages and J-7s aircrafts. Jf-17s will be filling up the numbers, Just like we opted for Mig-21s in past and now LCA Tejas in coming years.

While technologically inferior to other more advanced fighters but low production and maintenance costs made it ideal Fighter for a country like Pakistan.


Mig-21 has better radar with longer range ,
they have smaller profile
they have better T/W ratio , it can probably climb and turn faster
It can carry and fire an R-77

JF-17 does not even have proper BVR missile or radar yet.
At the very least , because of the AWACS support they have , their radar disadvantage would not be a major issue.
Same applies for MIg-21 as well.

Honestly AWACS pretty much ensure the aircraft that has the lower profile, faster climb rate and longer range missile wins the engagement. In this case that is the Mig-21.

Also PAK can barely even afford to upgrade their F-16's(which is their most capable and roughly equivalent to our Mig-29's) , what money is left for their JF-17's.

As of now pak has only an order of 50 of these aircraft , and now they are asking for block 2 from chines after failing to bring in Europeans to upgrade the aircraft
Agreed,........But presenly AWACS wouldnt be play a key role in the Sub-Continenet. Since both both the airforce are not well know to AWACS, so there will a limit to their importance. Although we already have awacs in our Inventory, but IAF didnt exploited to its max.

Both the aircrafts doesnt have a decent BVR Capability. Besides Mig-21 have their own Disadvantages like,
- Short range,
- Burns Fuel heavily
- The front air intake made a very small space available for the radar causing to lack the long-range radar
- Mig-21 is designed in late 1960s where Jf-17s in 20s

Whereas,......When it comes to F-16s. Do u know In early 2006 the PAF ordered AIM-120C AMRAAM missiles for their F-16s. If that is true than the F-16s can barely be equillant to IAF's primary air superiority fighter Sukhoi-30MKI.
F-16s with AIM-120 supported by AWACS could a real threat for IAF.


If war breaks out then JF 17 and Mig 21 CLASH is inevitable

Because Presently PAF has allocated the role of Close air support to JF 17 .it means that JF 17 will attack the Indian armour and mechanised formations

In India pak war situation , Mig 21 will provide air cover to Mig 27 and Jaguar which will be used for carpet bombing the pak army assets and formations

The mig 21 will at the most go 70 to 80 km inside the border because of its limited range
The Big boys like Su 30 mki Mig 29, Mirage 2000 are meant for deep strikes and taking out the F16 as well as important ground assets like Command and control centres and radar stations
The Sukhoi Su-30MKI and the second line superiority fighters like Mig-209 and Mirages-2000s will provide the aircover with the support of Ground and AWACS.
Mig-21s will be strictly used for Interception roles and will never be used to sneak into enemy territory. Using Mig-21s has air cover will make Mig-27 a sitting ducks.

lack of good air to ground capabilities proved costly for IAF in Kargil War. After Kargil War the IAF underwent a series of changes to improve its capabilities. We are not using MiG-21s for Air-to-Ground roles anymore.
 

mukul_2210

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Whereas,......When it comes to F-16s. Do u know In early 2006 the PAF ordered AIM-120C AMRAAM missiles for their F-16s. If that is true than the F-16s can barely be equivalent to IAF's primary air superiority fighter Sukhoi-30MKI.
F-16s with AIM-120 supported by AWACS could a real threat for IAF.
But still F-16 face major security treat to U.S that why f-16 given to PAF are not installed with AESE and other advance software . because they fear china can possibly do a back engineering and is 24*7 under the surveillance of usaf . and neither they are in such a great number that they can pose much of a threat .

JF17 : how it could be a failure , they surely can drop bombs but they defiantly doest fall in league of su or mig 29 . secondly they might be in numbers but you cant put your money on them weather they can outperform any of the Indian jets as its single engine thrust and its maneuverability is rigid .War is won by technology not by quantity . now technicalities , you must be privy of the following info . as it is all over internet.




The FC-1 has come under a lot of fire from every quarter that one can think of. One prominent quarter was from Mr. Aboulafia of the Teal Group. He originally wrote:
"If you put it (JF-17) head to head against an F-16, it would probably last about five seconds"
Thinking perhaps that he has not been aware of the later developments of the FC-1, I contacted him to find out more, and whether he was still sticking to his guns. This is the response I got from him:
I do [still stand by my statement], with twosmall caveats. One is that although we aviation fans love our planes, the side with the superior AWACS/AEW, satellite, and C3I links is going to have a huge advantage. But assuming we're looking at two planes with equal amounts of external sensor access (or no access), and assuming equal pilot training, the F-16 would win in seconds. For beyond visual range combat it's APG-68/AMRAAM combination would out-shoot the Elta 2032/AMRAAM wannabe on the FC-1 (other radars proposed for the type are worse, particularly the Grifo). For closer in combat the F-16's thrust-to-weight ratio outclasses the FC-1's. In either case the F-16's EW systems are considerably more sophisticated. Also, the FC-1 and its systems have never been tested in combat, which makes a huge difference in effectiveness.

The second caveat, of course, is which F-16. An early A model would have a harder time than a recent C model. All of this ignores the much greater reliability of the avionics and engines on the F-16. We have no idea what mission capable rates are on an FC-1; I suspect they're relatively low, especially for the RD-93.
Lets take a deeper look at the arguments:
"For beyond visual range combat it's APG-68/AMRAAM combination would out-shoot the Elta 2032/AMRAAM wannabe"
Firstly, the FC-1 and Elta pairing is old news and has been proved otherwise. The radar you're comparing with is the KLJ-7. Leaving aside the fact that it is appalling for an aviation expert to not know this, it is not improbable that the KLJ-7 is of the same generation as the APG-68, given recent comparison statements by the PAF.
And even if at the end of the day you have marginally better radar, it in no way means you're going to thump your opponent (and that too in mere 5 seconds). If that were the case then the F-15s would be swatting out the F-16s in air combat training, which goes against results from virtually every Red Flag event. Further, with AWACS on both sides, you might find that you don't have a better situational awareness in any case because AWACS has evened the field (again, all this is merely considering a theoretical marginal advantage in detection range).
Comparing the AMRAAM to the SD-10 is another major question mark. The SD-10 has greater range while being more bulky. This means that AMRAAM may be slightly more agile. No clear advantage exists for either except that AMRAAMs are battle tested. Last but not the least, it may be of some interest to Mr. Aboulafia that even in the highly unlikely event that F-16s are knocking out FC-1s like flies, for an AMRAAM to launch and reach a target 50 Kms away, it would take more than 5 seconds for sure.
"For closer in combat the F-16's thrust-to-weight ratio outclasses the FC-1's"
We all wish WVR combat were that simple. With modern high off-bore sight missiles maneuverability becomes less relevant. Even if we take the unrealistic view that such missiles will not be available, you still find that a TWR margin of 0.07 at best will only give you a marginal advantage. Clearly, nothing that would be a decider in combat.
Again, one can look to Red Flag results.
"The F-16's EW systems are considerably more sophisticated."
Perhaps the most solid part of Mr. Aboulafia's rather flimsy argument is this. China has traditionally lagged behind in EW. However, the new generation that the JF-17 entails is a couple of generations ahead of anything seen before. This includes a fully integrated EW suite, the level of integration being in the same plain as the Rafale or the Super Hornet. A good deal of information has emerged on the surprising advancement in this regard. For instance, one such advancement is that the EW system can directionally beam energy, creating the same impact as a large electronic warfare airplane in that particular direction.
The whole point becomes moot in any case because Pakistan would never receive the full EW suite but only a monkeyfied version of it, given the sensitive technologies involved. The US is unlikely to package its F-16s with anything that would be something new for the Pakistanis / Chinese to discover, come next U-turn in the mercurial Pakistani-US relations.
 

indian_sukhoi

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But still F-16 face major security treat to U.S that why f-16 given to PAF are not installed with AESE and other advance software . because they fear china can possibly do a back engineering and is 24*7 under the surveillance of usaf . and neither they are in such a great number that they can pose much of a threat .

JF17 : how it could be a failure , they surely can drop bombs but they defiantly doest fall in league of su or mig 29 . secondly they might be in numbers but you cant put your money on them weather they can outperform any of the Indian jets as its single engine thrust and its maneuverability is rigid .War is won by technology not by quantity . now technicalities , you must be privy of the following info . as it is all over internet.
Offcourse F-16s to Pakistan comes with strings attached. Besides, PAF cannot even fly these aircrafts to another country without the US clearance permission. Americans were so concern that they made PAK to force to build and secure a separate F-16 base.

Maybe Those missiles must be under watchfull eye of americans, But in a War scenario will that prevent the PAF of not using the araams in the Battlefield??

I Agree that the small fleet of F-16s would not make a difference but Fighting a F-16s with araams and AWACS is not the same.



Whereas,......when it comes Jf-17s, I wasnt comapring JF-17 with Sukhois and MiG-29s.
I was bringing the point about why it is called has failure??. If PAF inducting a new aircraft, It doesnt mean it should be superior than the Sukhoi-30MKIs.

When MMRCA Competitors aircrafts are superoor than LCA Tejas. Than is that supposed to mean Tejas are Failure??. Any Aircraft which surpassed the requirments of the Buyer than it cannot be called has a failed aircraft.


J-17s for Pakistan is more like a HF-24 Marut, the first fighter aircraft made in India. The Aircraft maybe not be upto expectation but its a good start. the first time in thier life, They are making a aircraft in thier own country.
Isnt that something ;-)

no i meant mig-31 which was designed to replace mig-25 in soviet union and has a top speed of mach 3.2
What is that the Mig-31 does have which the MKI dosent??

Russia Offered the MiG-31s in exchange for the IAF MiG-25s so that they can sold to Algeria. But IAF choose to retire the Mig-25s.
Algeria and India offered trade-in deal for MiG-31s-13/12/2005-Flight International

The MiG-31 is a very potent interceptor, which no country in the world required. It simply doesnt fits in IAF Inventory. Not to forget, The Aircraft is a maintenance nightmare and maintaining a mixed fleet.
 

mukul_2210

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yaah but here i am talking about technology rather than strategy ... more than a fighter plane it depends on the skill of a pilot ...

using f16 with awacs would be a part of strategy and it will be countered a well ...currently jf 7 lacks metal to take on a competent fighter ...it might have a bright future plan but as of now i dont see it being technologically sound ..and even pak defence minister said in a i qoute "jf17 is not technologically advance but suely they can drop bombs"
offource tejas is not as advance as SU 30 thats why it has a role of support rather than frontline fighter but procurement of such planes are not out of any pressure , its for a propose whereas jf 17 is just a way to procure cheap stuff and to over rate it . Even PAF time to time express to switch over more competent aircraft. Yes wiping them and make them run for a money wouldnt be a great deal .
Rather than going for 275 jf 17 they must have opted for 120 j-10 .
 

ace009

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I am surprised at the level of trolling and hollow patriotic demagoguery going on here! JF-17 is based on the Mig-21 airframe (remember, it is an upgrade from the JF-7s, which were chinese knock-offs of the Mig-21). The Chinese have definitely put in more thought and effort in making the JF-17 better than the JF-7, ergo the Mig-21s. aerodynamically and airframe strength wise, the JF-17 is ahead of the Mig-21 Bis.
Now for avionics, the Mig-21 Bis with Israeli components maybe ahead of the JF-17 Mk-I, but if/ when the JF-17 Mk-II comes out with western avionics, that difference will go away. Same is the case for BVR missiles. The JF-17 Mk I does not fire any BVR missiles, while the Mig-21 Bis can fire the R-77. However, once the JF-17 Mk-II comes with the PL-12/SD-10 missiles, this difference will go away too. So, overall, the JF-17 Mk-I may not match up with the Mig-21 Bis, but in another 3-4 years, the JF-17 Mk-II will be ready to go toe-to-toe with the Mig-21 Bis and maybe able to turn the table.

Having said that and damning myself to the eyes of my patriotic fellow Indians, let me ask you this - when do you think Mig-21 bis will encounter the JF-17? If it is from now till 2014, then Mig-21 Bis will win. If it is from 2014 till 2017 then the JF-17 Mk-II will win. If it is after 2017, then the matchup is meaningless since the Mig-21 Bis will be mostly replaced for frontline interceptor role by the LCA Mk-II, at which point the advantage will swing in favor of LCA Mk-II.
 

Tomcat

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Mukul always remeber that in the end the mechine is only as good as the Person who is using it in war every thing is a platform and it is not wise to degrade even your worst enemies platform because in war looks can be deceptive
 

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