China's vulnerability in Malacca Strait

F-14

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Yusfji what about a Expedionary force on a Tri service basis like this

1st Indian Expeditionary unit

Army component

1 Armoured Division

4 Infantry Division

22 Mountain Division

Airforce Congingent

16 Wing

15 Wing


Naval condingent

10th Submarine Squadron - INS Vajrabahu @ Mumbai
15th Frigate Squadron - INS Agnivahu @ Colaba, Mumbai
19th MCM Squadron (M19) @ Mumbai - Ocean Minesweepers

Special support Detachment

INS Jyoti A58 - Replenishment Tanker

INS Shakti A57 - Replenishment Tanker

INS Nireekshak A15 - Diving Support Ship

INS Investigator J15 - Sandhayak Class (Survey Ship)

Coast Guard Detachment

750 Squadron
841 Squadron
ICG 800 Sqn
(ICGEFU)

ICGS Samrat
ICGS Jijabai 64
ICGS Chandbibi 65
ICGS Kittur Chinnama 66
ICGS Rani Jindan
 

Yusuf

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Sounds more like a marine exp unit. We have been discussing that in another thread if India needs a marine like unit.
 

F-14

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so yusfji can you move my post to that thread so that this topic won't deviate because of this
 

hit&run

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Corruption in Delhi is a factor that does not gain the upper hand in war as demonstrated in 1948; 1962, 1965,1971 and kargil.

So?
When you will approach 'Generals' for help?
When there will be a failure of Political solution or war will be forced upon you by an aggressor.
What china is doing to you? Nothing, in terms of thrusting such a force which will cross the threshold to be considered as an aggression of war. They are simply teasing you in your backyard and doing business around. India cannot stop them using International routs at all.



Are you suggesting by scattering such and such resources in Indian ocean we be able to run a war like Battle of Atlantic?

However to give you the benefit of the doubt nepotism before any possible conflict does play a role in the outcome of conflict.

No, You/we are simply warmongers, Indian navy knows what to do and what not to do and better then us for sure. MS is not the are of Interest for Indian navy. More we will raise this issue more they(chines) will be interested to find alternatives(Read/google 'Kra Isthmus Canal project').


Let us not speculate on scenarios here,
If china fights any future war using oil reserves it could very well be that both vietnam and taiwan use the opportunity to strike at china when she is engaged with india, similarly it is his also possible the Pakistanis strike India when we are engaged.

Necessity is the mother of invention; In that scenarios for both India and china.
We cant rely on others in case of war. Not even a single Indian in defence forces will suppose that Taiwan will use that opportunity in case of war until unless you have alliance with them . Same applies on USA(please read some articles on world war II). The other option is to be US proxy(if US is interested in you) at the cost of sovereignty.



As far as the surrender of the IA is concerned that is a worst case scenario,it could very well be the other way around.

Of course it can be; Indian forces will fight to kill them all but what New Delhi will do is a question of mere speculation.
My only purpose to raise my concern on unit level is to make sure that we Indians can think beyond the horizon. I have seen hundreds of threads full of optimism that forces will save our aspirations to be a superpower. Don't you think we are creating unnecessary pressure on 'Bravo'.
The damage has already been done when New Delhi was busy in elections and politics on cast and religion. The single world for the Salvation to this situation is "Assertive". We all have to raise above the evil differences of cast and religion.

Once i read a post in another forum that why Indians are not able to make Single crystal blade for our jet engines as India was pioneering the world in science of metallurgy for many centuries till before Industrial revolution. And my answer was that the man who was having art of melting metals was called as "Lohar " and was treated as low cast by high cast Indians. "Bengalraider" we are now paying the price for that mistreatment. So my assertion on this topic is changed and i am feeling the need to be critical for over optimism. you may argue that the above rant has nothing to do with this thread but to me it does. It will force us to change our way of thinking for every single issue which is challenging us.
Regards.
 

sandeepdg

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A base in Oman probably wont happen due to US presence there.
Maldives as a choice of base doensnt sound good to me as its very close to India. Any base in southern India is good enough. India is doing all that its doing there just to keep the Chinese out, or else they will come up right there and in our face.

Mauritius and Madagascar are better choices as they are further away in the Arabian Sea and that will give us good strategic space.

But all that will be in the future. We dont have many assets as i said before. Even the Air Base in Tajikistan has got no fighters stationed. We dont have the requisite strength for our mainland itself, let alone station them on overseas bases. We have to increase our both Air and Naval assets. And all the bases we establish should not be one forces arm specific but should be a tri service base.
Well, as of now we only have a naval station in northern Madagascar and there are plans of another similar facility coming up in the Agalega Islands in Mauritius....... but getting a full fledged naval or airbase is not in the cards for now.... And, yes mate, i am talking of the future not the present, around a decade into the future....
 

Ray

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Its not so easy to build oil pipelines across entire countries running thousands of miles.

Problem No: 1 for China.....The Uighurs can target these pipelines anytime they pissed and the cost of cleaning up a busted pipeline is huge.

Problem No:2 - Oil pipelines that runs thousands of miles are over ground, not underground. The reason is over ground is cheaper and less prone to earth movement issues. Again this makes the pipeline a sitting duck for terrorists and theft. I believe the oil pipeline in Alaska is one of the longest in the world.


News report state so.

Therefore, one has to believe it is being done.

If KKH can come up so can this!
 

AkhandBharat

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My only purpose to raise my concern on unit level is to make sure that we Indians can think beyond the horizon. I have seen hundreds of threads full of optimism that forces will save our aspirations to be a superpower. Don't you think we are creating unnecessary pressure on 'Bravo'.
The damage has already been done when New Delhi was busy in elections and politics on cast and religion. The single world for the Salvation to this situation is "Assertive". We all have to raise above the evil differences of cast and religion.

Once i read a post in another forum that why Indians are not able to make Single crystal blade for our jet engines as India was pioneering the world in science of metallurgy for many centuries till before Industrial revolution. And my answer was that the man who was having art of melting metals was called as "Lohar " and was treated as low cast by high cast Indians. "Bengalraider" we are now paying the price for that mistreatment. So my assertion on this topic is changed and i am feeling the need to be critical for over optimism. you may argue that the above rant has nothing to do with this thread but to me it does. It will force us to change our way of thinking for every single issue which is challenging us.
Regards.
A lohar did not have the art of making metals. What kind of stupid analogy is this? A lohar was a person who used to make useful things out of metals like swords, pots, pans, and others. Lohars never did any metallurgy. The kings used to fund projects when someone did invent things like these and rewarded the inventors with gold. At times, if the inventor was overly gifted, they were appointed as members of the kings court and later generations of the said inventors' families were considered nobility. This was the prevalent scheme everywhere in the feudal/monarch societies around the world.

If someone is doing a menial job and not inventing something, they are still paid low salaries today. Blue collar workers are paid meagre salaries, while white collar workers are paid more, simply because their work involves more extensive utilization of brain than brawns.

If you think about it, the same thing is happening today. The only difference is the rewarding power today is in the hands of governments for military innovations and in the hands of the free market for civilian innovations.

The reason why India is still struggling is because of a myriad of reasons:

1) Appointing incompetent people through reservations (to make up for past amends ofcourse) who cannot do their daily job inefficiently. Most of them are in governmental positions of power and breed corruption. The country is bleeding its best minds to foreign nations that promise them decent standard of living for their contribution to its economy while at the same time appointing incompetent people to administrative positions!

2) Corruption is so rampant, its like a third degree cancer in India. The tumor has taken over the normal cells. Every government employee expects some form of tribute to be given even if he/she are doing daily jobs. It has not changed even with the pay commission revisions providing decent salaries to public sector employees thus negating the notion that meagre salaries are responsible for such behavior. People will commit crime if they are given the chance to, which means the judicial arm should be powerful enough to dole out justice in a timely and efficient way, to reward the hard working and weed out the corrupt.

3) No access to quality education in rural areas, leading to two worlds with a wide chasm amongst them inside the country itself.

4) No access to health care, leading to massive malnutrition, leading to inferior growth. Ever wondered, why a tiny island ruled a nation so vast? The reason was the same. There was a big difference between the elites and the have-nots leading to the policy of everyone looking out for themselves, ultimately culminating into traitors at first, and then wars amongst the kingdoms themselves.

The big question is: Every political party in India is still playing the same game with China breathing down under our neck.

What little we have achieved, is despite the governance of the state. There is very little innovation in the sciences and engineering because there is no collaboration between the educational institutes in India and the industry. The so-called IITs are not ranked in the top 100 institutions of the world, despite them attracting the best talents amongst a billion people. The same students do a lot better when they are picked up by foreign institutions, but cannot perform well in the country because of bureaucracy which has spread even in the private sector.

The private sector is not at all concerned with innovating, because it is busy filling up the pockets of the rich elite and they don't want to take any chances by investing in innovative projects for fear of losing even a small chunk of stash. Big industrial powerhouses only invest in projects that are successful overseas and then bring it as a low cost production to cater to people in India. Enterpreneurial risk is very low amongst enterprises, while it is cut-throat in western world. The state did take risks in key projects early on, like launching its own space program, which started small, but is now sowing results and competing with the likes of Nasa and even collaborating with it, even though they operate on 1/10th of its budget.

In my opinion, the change has to come from the ground up, if we are to be successful as a democracy. For that,

1) The minimum requirement is education, health care and food for all. We have lifted a quarter of our people out of poverty and just look at how much the nation has transformed! Imagine where the country can go if the rest are lifted out too.

2) The people themselves have to take the initiative to uncover the corrupt people in the administration. Once a few are dragged to jail, the rest will fall in line. But that would mean, elimination of parallel black economy, which again requires the people to come up clean and pay taxes

3) Eliminate reservation. If reservation has to be given, it has to be only to the economically backward people, because that is all that matters in todays world. Moreover, these positions should be in non-crucial administration jobs only. This also means that education has to be provided to the masses so they have equal opportunity atleast until high school. People that show promise can always be provided loans/scholarship depending on their aptitude level.

This has to be a grass roots movement if we have to survive against a nation that is ruled by an iron hand. Only then can we be the next united states keeping the communist neighbor at bay.
 

s002wjh

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If there is a blockade of the Malacca straits Chinese war capacity would probably be 3-6 weeks maximum using
any oil reserves they have; with their economy crumbling during this period.
lol. i like to know what the japanese, korean, and US think when india blockade oil/shipping route at malacca. on top of that, does india has the capability to stop chinese navy. other than US navy, i don't think anyone has the ability to blockade china.
 

Yusuf

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lol. i like to know what the japanese, korean, and US think when india blockade oil/shipping route at malacca. on top of that, does india has the capability to stop chinese navy. other than US navy, i don't think anyone has the ability to blockade china.
You don't understand. The Malaccas are a choke point. Any decent navy can do it. India's Andaman Islands is stones throw from the Malaccas.
 

s002wjh

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You don't understand. The Malaccas are a choke point. Any decent navy can do it. India's Andaman Islands is stones throw from the Malaccas.
and it will be crawl with chinese subs, navy etc. hence india need to destroy chinese navy to do it.

also don't think other country rely on malacca will stand by, japan, korean, US, and others. US will have major issues with anyone who choke shipping through malacca

on top of that, you do know china is building pipe from russia to china, iran through pakistan to china etc.

this is similar to iran saying they want to shutdown strait of hormuz, which will affect everyone. and the oil price
 
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Yusuf

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and it will be crawl with chinese subs, navy etc. hence india need to destroy chinese navy to do it.

also don't think other country rely on malacca will stand by, japan, korean, US, and others.
Why do you think India has bought the Poseidons? And why do you think India is planning to base Su30s in Andamans? Striking distance for our air assets. You can keep all 50 subs in the Malaccas.
 

Known_Unknown

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Why do you think India has bought the Poseidons? And why do you think India is planning to base Su30s in Andamans? Striking distance for our air assets. You can keep all 50 subs in the Malaccas.
India will not be allowed to interdict ships in the Malacca Straits if not by the Chinese, then definitely by the Americans. You forget the oil supplies of the whole of East Asia pass through there. What's to stop tankers from flying Japanese or Korean flags? If you start interdicting each and every ship to verify paperwork, it will create a massive bottleneck which will affect Japan and Korea's economy as well.

Theoretically it sounds beautiful, but it is practically a fantasy, nothing more.
 
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lol. i like to know what the japanese, korean, and US think when india blockade oil/shipping route at malacca. on top of that, does india has the capability to stop chinese navy. other than US navy, i don't think anyone has the ability to blockade china.
Check what the malabar naval exercises were.
 

Ray

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and it will be crawl with chinese subs, navy etc. hence india need to destroy chinese navy to do it.

also don't think other country rely on malacca will stand by, japan, korean, US, and others. US will have major issues with anyone who choke shipping through malacca

on top of that, you do know china is building pipe from russia to china, iran through pakistan to china etc.

this is similar to iran saying they want to shutdown strait of hormuz, which will affect everyone. and the oil price
Are you aware of the realities?

Crawl with Chinese subs?

They have that many to infiltrate the Indian Ocean as also to safeguard its coast?

That is just a starter for your views.
 

s002wjh

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Are you aware of the realities?

Crawl with Chinese subs?

They have that many to infiltrate the Indian Ocean as also to safeguard its coast?

That is just a starter for your views.
safeguard what coast? is US gonna attack china during india/china conflict? no. so china can send majority of their navy or subs to malacca or near by area. along with china diesel and SSN subs, there are navy supports, 52c etc etc.
also its not like neighbor countries will be happy about india choking the malacca.

choking the malacca will not accomplish much during india/china border conflict. for starter, india gonna piss off all the asia pacific country in the region, not just japan, korea, vietnam etc. also US won't allow anyone to choke strait of malacca. furthermore, china import oil from pipeline through pakistan, russia and south america. last time i check both US and china stockpile oil reserve for decades that can last 6month or more. china certainly can give its military higher priority on oils. oil can only hurt chinese economy, the result will hurt entire global economy, price hike in oil. these are few things that will get US involved. so its best for india/china to have limited conflict at the border
 

Kunal Biswas

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lol. i like to know what the japanese, korean, and US think when india blockade oil/shipping route at malacca. on top of that, does india has the capability to stop chinese navy. other than US navy, i don't think anyone has the ability to blockade china.
Look at the Map, read geography for the start..

There is only one pass through SCS to Andaman sea is a narrow channel for a Single CBG, Indian Navy base Andaman which is at mouth of Andamans have 3 airbases in battle mode it can hold 6 squadrons of Fighter and ASW big birds, That place also hold PJ-10 and SA-6 AD..

Re evaluate now..

and it will be crawl with chinese subs, navy etc. hence india need to destroy chinese navy to do it.
Andaman Sea is shallow water, And IN TU-142ME are operational there..



also its not like neighbor countries will be happy about india choking the malacca.

last time i check both US and china stockpile oil reserve for decades that can last 6month or more
Oil Reserves Only, Nothing else ?

If there is a Small conflict, IN will take advantage without a doubt, And we know were the China sea trades goes by, War take resources, This will add more to the cause..
 

s002wjh

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If there is a Small conflict, IN will take advantage without a doubt, And we know were the China sea trades goes by, War take resources, This will add more to the cause..
yes the airbase is there, india air force gonna sink ALL the civilian ship that pass through the strait? indian navy gonna search every ship that pass through the strait, do you know how many ships pass through there each day!
most of the oil or other ship go to china are not even chinese, but belong to opec, europe etc. furthermore, its almost impossible to distinguish a ship destination if china decide to blend in their ship along with other foreign ships, documentation, route, transport location everything can be forge, make impossible to stop only certain ships in the area. the only way to stop the transport is seal it off and stop any ship attempt to pass through the strait, and i can guranntee you that US won't allow that to happen. this is the same reason why US won't allow china to have south china sea. freedom of navigation is ong the most important thing for US. also you think other country will just ignore india take over of malacca. ;) its not just affecting china but all the other countries as well. it won't be long before US intervane

during WWII US place economic embargo on japan, did it cause japan to stop the war? no.

if china economy goes down, it will affect everyone else too, US europe etc. the fact is choke malacca will not stop war between china and india, china has enough oil reserve, and other place to import oil to drag the war much longer. how long india gonna choke the malacca, weeks, months? US is not gonna allow that to happen, too many country depend on that route.

even if china don't send in their navys, its gonna be a headche for indian political to keep other nations happy, US korean, japan etc
 
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Adux

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Gents,


Freedom of Seas is taken very seriously by all. But that said, We might not choke civilian ships. But for India, any Chinese Navy ships are just target practice in that region. We control and have absolute supremacy except for with USN. Chinese will be at bottom of the Ocean, in the event of a declared war.
 

s002wjh

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if india is not choking civilian ships in that area, there is no purpose for chinese navy to be there. long range, and logistic is an issues.

however

The maximum size of a vessel that can make passage through the Strait is referred to as Malaccamax. The strait is not deep enough (at 25 metres or 82 feet) to permit some of the largest ships (mostly oil tankers) to use it. A ship that exceeds Malaccamax will typically use the Lombok Strait, Makassar Strait, Sibutu Passage and Mindoro Strait instead.
Strait of Malacca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
so there are alernative for oil tanker to go through if malacca was blocked.
 

Adux

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if india is not choking civilian ships in that area, there is no purpose for chinese navy to be there. long range, and logistic is an issues.

however



so there are alernative for oil tanker to go through if malacca was blocked.
Good point. The issue is, India will actively try to stop Chinese bound ships especially Oil Tankers, it will try to draw out Chinese into IOR. You can expect in these times of Positive identification and data fusion, that it will be easy task to identify those ships.

IOR is India's Playground, you under estimate the training and equipment available to the Indian Navy, it is only second to USN in Asian region, even far ahead of South Korean or Japanese, and the Chinese are no where there. India's access to technology is unprecedented, we have the best from east and west. We are not talking about a few Ageis class vessels here, rather a Naval Fleet.
 

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