Chinese firm wins Turkey's missile defense system tender

t_co

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Re: Chinese Firm Wins Big Turkish Air-Defense Deal

You think they will allow you?
Doesn't matter if they allow China or not - when the project integration starts, Turkey will need to share technical information and let Chinese personnel on-site.
 

Compersion

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Unless it is a indigenous (Turkey if not PRC) system that integrates and is in a different area. The Turkey leadership will be silly to allow such things. But already having the chance to step inside with such system is a big thing in such a environment. Congrats.

Now is talk of implementation of contract and delivery and payment. Has it come as a surprise to NATO and Russia that is also a question.
 

t_co

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Unless it is a indigenous (Turkey if not PRC) system that integrates and is in a different area. The Turkey leadership will be silly to allow such things. But already having the chance to step inside with such system is a big thing in such a environment. Congrats.

Now is talk of implementation of contract and delivery and payment. Has it come as a surprise to NATO and Russia that is also a question.
I doubt Turkey would be paying $3bn if it was going go 100% with its own software systems.
 

drkrn

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my view on this,they want to test chinese versions and exploit its weakness
 

drkrn

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Re: Chinese Firm Wins Big Turkish Air-Defense Deal

Doesn't matter if they allow China or not - when the project integration starts, Turkey will need to share technical information and let Chinese personnel on-site.
such systems have nato personnel who are non turkish placed there,dont even think about it.
 

t_co

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Re: Chinese Firm Wins Big Turkish Air-Defense Deal

such systems have nato personnel who are non turkish placed there,dont even think about it.
All it takes is one thumb drive.
 

Compersion

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I doubt Turkey would be paying $3bn if it was going go 100% with its own software systems.
What are you trying to say. Is it a Trojan horse. Price had no role. Be more specific.

Quotes:

"T-Loramids consists of radar, launcher and intercept missiles. The system has been designed to counter both enemy aircraft and missiles. Turkey has no long-range air-defense systems.

CPMEIC said it will co-produce the system with Turkish prime and subcontractors. But diplomats and analysts warn that Turkey may not be allowed to integrate the Chinese-Turkish system into its mostly NATO-owned early warning assets""

And also this:

"As shown in the dropping of price tag for $4 billion to $3 billion, the Chinese system obviously had a big advantage in price tag. Also, they are likely to be willing to share more technology and go for more local production than Raytheon and LockMart. However, the lack of integration with NATO system along with general pressure from American government put both the Chinese and Russian bids at a disadvantage. What this result shows is that the Chinese system must have achieved at least comparable technical performance in the bidding process compared to its competition and probably won out due to cost + co-production."
 

t_co

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What are you trying to say. Is it a Trojan horse. Price had no role. Be more specific.
I have no visibility into the contract and no insight into the intentions of either the buyer or seller.

Quotes:

"T-Loramids consists of radar, launcher and intercept missiles. The system has been designed to counter both enemy aircraft and missiles. Turkey has no long-range air-defense systems.

CPMEIC said it will co-produce the system with Turkish prime and subcontractors. But diplomats and analysts warn that Turkey may not be allowed to integrate the Chinese-Turkish system into its mostly NATO-owned early warning assets""
Air-defense systems are usually combined into an integrated network composed of the following elements:

--Sensors (e.g. radars - ground-, air-, ship-based; satellites)
--Communication links (in an offensive air control campaign, these would be wireless; in a defensive campaign, these would predominantly be deeply buried fiber optic cables)
--Command, Control, and Computer Nodes (e.g. command bunkers, server farms/data centers, airborne command posts)
--Launchers (everything from a teenager with a SA-18 to the SM-3 and S-400; also includes aircraft tasked with CAP; this is where the Chinese system would fit)
--Facilities, Repair, Supply, and Logistics (fuel tanks, runways, warehouses with missiles)

How many of these elements will the T-Loramids/HQ-9 have to interact with to function at maximum efficiency? Every element that interfaces with the Chinese system will need project integration work, which means China has a potential to learn about it. NATO may gain deep insight into the HQ-9, but China will be able to peek into a broad swathe of NATO systems in return. It's a question of depth vs breadth.
 

nimo_cn

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Re: Chinese Firm Wins Big Turkish Air-Defense Deal

Or the Americans have the Turks to thank for the opportunity to closely analyze Chinese missile defense tech... :thumb:
By paying 3 billion $?

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
 

Compersion

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a bit of a side topic but related after the contract award.

- why are nato systems in turkey.

- also why are patriot systems in turkey.

- are they turkey owned and manned systems.

- can these american systems be moved.

- do they have end user verification language agreement.

- will USA react because of the contract.
 

drkrn

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Re: Chinese Firm Wins Big Turkish Air-Defense Deal

All it takes is one thumb drive.
how exactly??
turkey isn't your ally.

even if you place any sort of trojans,hardware americans can easily detect such malicious content.how will you make sure such deal not going to happen
 

drkrn

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What are you trying to say. Is it a Trojan horse. Price had no role. Be more specific.

Quotes:

"T-Loramids consists of radar, launcher and intercept missiles. The system has been designed to counter both enemy aircraft and missiles. Turkey has no long-range air-defense systems.

CPMEIC said it will co-produce the system with Turkish prime and subcontractors. But diplomats and analysts warn that Turkey may not be allowed to integrate the Chinese-Turkish system into its mostly NATO-owned early warning assets""

And also this:

"As shown in the dropping of price tag for $4 billion to $3 billion, the Chinese system obviously had a big advantage in price tag. Also, they are likely to be willing to share more technology and go for more local production than Raytheon and LockMart. However, the lack of integration with NATO system along with general pressure from American government put both the Chinese and Russian bids at a disadvantage. What this result shows is that the Chinese system must have achieved at least comparable technical performance in the bidding process compared to its competition and probably won out due to cost + co-production."
few days back americans offered us to co produce aircraft carriers,seems these hidden clauses can be detrimental to us
 

drkrn

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I have no visibility into the contract and no insight into the intentions of either the buyer or seller.



Air-defense systems are usually combined into an integrated network composed of the following elements:

--Sensors (e.g. radars - ground-, air-, ship-based; satellites)
--Communication links (in an offensive air control campaign, these would be wireless; in a defensive campaign, these would predominantly be deeply buried fiber optic cables)
--Command, Control, and Computer Nodes (e.g. command bunkers, server farms/data centers, airborne command posts)
--Launchers (everything from a teenager with a SA-18 to the SM-3 and S-400; also includes aircraft tasked with CAP; this is where the Chinese system would fit)
--Facilities, Repair, Supply, and Logistics (fuel tanks, runways, warehouses with missiles)

How many of these elements will the T-Loramids/HQ-9 have to interact with to function at maximum efficiency? Every element that interfaces with the Chinese system will need project integration work, which means China has a potential to learn about it. NATO may gain deep insight into the HQ-9, but China will be able to peek into a broad swathe of NATO systems in return. It's a question of depth vs breadth.
exactly,turkey may ask you to leave the integration head ache to itself,india has been doing this for long.we integrate russian,french aircraft with israeli avionics and technologies.
then what
 

drkrn

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a bit of a side topic but related after the contract award.

- why are nato systems in turkey.

- also why are patriot systems in turkey.

- are they turkey owned and manned systems.

- can these american systems be moved.

- do they have end user verification language agreement.

- will USA react because of the contract.
AFAIK turkey doesn't have any NATO weapons which can engage russian missiles,neither did america comply with turkish requests.hence this project

as turkey is a NATO member,they will stay in turkey

3 billion contract is a good sum,but turkey is even more important
 

asianobserve

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Re: Chinese Firm Wins Big Turkish Air-Defense Deal

By paying 3 billion $?

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2

You have a point there. But the Turks will still allow access to their NATO "allies" regardless of the cost, that's for sure.
 

t_co

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exactly,turkey may ask you to leave the integration head ache to itself,india has been doing this for long.we integrate russian,french aircraft with israeli avionics and technologies.
then what
Right, but you can learn an awful lot about a system just by the information they ask from you to integrate it into their network. For example, what sort of datalinking does Turkey want between the missile's on-board sensors and their US-manufactured X-band radar? Do they want the missile to run in a "silent" mode, where the missile doesn't beam out any radar but relies on signals bouncing off the beams from the more distant X-band radar station? If they want that (a massive force multiplier for their AD network), then they will need to disclose the X-band radar's min and max scan altitude, azimuth rotation rate, broadcast frequency (and frequency-hopping pattern), and even the bit-size of the random numerical codes (64-bit? 96-bit? 128-bit? etc) the X-band radar embeds in its outward pulses to differentiate its signal from enemy jamming (since you will need to allocate RAM in the missile to "remember" the right encoded pulse pattern.)
 
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shiphone

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part 1

if this contract gets done finally, that would be the 3rd large-scale Defence equipment trade between Turkey and China...
in the past decade , Turkey imported WS-1 long-distance rocket system and B611 Short Range Tactical Missile system, and Turkey bought the both full TOT...





so the trade and TOT of FD-2000 AD system between the two nations seems quite nature and some habit-forming...
 

shiphone

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part 2...

as some none chinese member on this forum has noticed and said before, nowadays, China's defence industry has already got the ability and resource to develop the different similar Weapon systems for both PLA and international operators...
e.g.. MBT2000 ,MBT 3000 tanks and ZTZ 99 ....A100 A200 and PHL03 300mm MRLS, ....this would be a long list....

in China ,competition and bidding of the defence purchase for PLA are quite intense...almost every project has to be desided by different R&D teams' competition...and many failed project would be naturely turned into international market...

another rule is------basicly ,we won't see many Defence equipments right in PLA service displayed on the China's or international Defence Expo. and such weapon system's export would have to get the nod from the PLA first...

------------------------------------
FD2000 is not HQ9 ...or I have to say FD2000 is some kind of down-graded HQ-9 system. although both products came from the same R&D team.,the difference is quite obvious...and I would like to made it simple with a easy comparation here

the engagement Radar of FD2000 is more close to the low end product--KS-1 AD system...HQ9's would be much complicated and advanced relatively



 

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