J-21/J-31 Chinese 5th Generation Stealth Fighter

[Armand2REP]

J31 has better range than Rafale?

 

[J20!]

J31 has better range than Rafale?

No shit Sherlock. It is larger, with much more internal room than a Rafale. There's a reason Rafale almost always carries 3 EFT on almost all its combat missions.

 

[ersakthivel]

First, the techonology for chasing VLO fighters is not mature nowadays, you also agreed on that; Thus under current technologies, it's very cost expensive to develop such system and still get unsatisfied results against VLO fighters.

Second, how many years should we wait until its maturity, 10 years, 20 years or even longer? If VLO fighters could dominate the sky for another 1 or 2 decades, they have already fullfill its target in history. When counter measure has been developed, there might be another generation fighters in shape already.

Third, countries who have the capabilities to design counter measures, if not out of expectation, are all powerful ones on world stage. They need develop the counter measures to their own VLO fighters first. Even they succeed someday, there might be common interest among them even they are somekind rivals, so that the technology is only shared among elite clubs who already have it, just like the Nuclear Club and Restrictions on Long Range Missile Exportation. So that VLO fighters can still keep its secrets to outer world for a much long period.

Fourth, i don't think VHF and L band radars are adequate or even necessary to be part of the solutions. Many limts lie there.

See the problem is no one can have a veto over tech development for a long time. It's enough if L band VHF and UHF gives an inaccurate estimate about the presence of stealth. Then stealth ucavs can be deployed to tag them in the same stealthy manner , and provide targeting info. And defensive fighters along with UCAV will finish the job.

SO to rule the skies fighters cannot rely on stealth alone. They should have exceedingly well engineered specs as well. Stealth will become one of the defensive aid to hide better.That seems to be the emerging consensus as stealth fighters carry a meager payload.

No country can afford to let it territory to be dominated by 5th gen stealth,So whatever be the cost counter measures will be designed fro them.And countries that are behind the curve in this area will catch up in a decade or two.

stealth fighter cannot detect this stealth UCAVS in the same way 4.5th gens are unable to detect the stealth 5th gens.
Then 4.5th gen fighters can be used to fight the 5th gen as stealth is compromised , all fighters are equal in a decade or two.
SO fighter design can never hide one's engine design weakness using stealth cover.

 

[cir]

It's official。SAC has embarked on the research and development of 6th--generation fighter aircraft：

http://www.chinaequip.gov.cn/2012-11/19/c_131984596.htm

Page 2，last paragraph but one。

 

[Armand2REP]

No shit Sherlock. It is larger, with much more internal room than a Rafale. There's a reason Rafale almost always carries 3 EFT on almost all its combat missions.

It is running on two RD-33s with a higher weight and less wing area making its range not even in the same class. It is more of a flying brick than any competition to Rafale.

 

[J20!]

It is running on two RD-33s with a higher weight and less wing area making its range not even in the same class. It is more of a flying brick than any competition to Rafale.

Again, stop pretending. You were calling J20 a flying brick, and that turned out false as well. You forget that while it has less wing area, J31 produces much more body lift than Rafale does and with its internal volume and reported range, obviously carries more fuel and thus weighs much more than Rafale does. You also forget that J31 doesn't have Rafale's handicap of having to carry weapons externally, thus much reduced drag at combat load and thus, once more. longer range.

One last thing, RD93 on J31 produces almost 3000lbf more than the M88 on a Rafale.

You know as well as I do that the RD-93's on J31 are gap fillers as are the 117's on Pak FA. Either way J31 will still be as fast, longer range and clearly a generation ahead of Rafale, why you're trying to compare them, I don't know....

 

[shiphone]

Russian Officials Reveal J-31 Engine and Describe Sales to China

China's recently flown second stealth fighter is powered by a pair of Russian-supplied Klimov RD-93 turbofans, AIN has learned. A large model of the design, which has been dubbed the J-31 in unofficial reports, was on display at Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, labeled as "an advanced multi-role fighter for the international defense market." Russian officials at the show described the supply of military Speculation that the new fighter uses Russian powerplants was confirmed by Vladimir Barkovsky, deputy general director of the Russian Aircraft Corp. "MIG" and head of its engineering center named after Artyem Mikoyan. Although he mentioned certain design flaws, Barkovsky gave a generally positive general assessment for the new Avic fighter design. "It looks like a good machine, and although it obviously has some design solutions already tried on the U.S. fifth-generation fighters, it is not a copy but a well done indigenous design," he told AIN.

Barkovsky expressed regrets over the Russian MoD's decision not to develop a next-generation lightweight fighter, saying that it may lead to Russia losing out in this distinct market segment. RAC MiG's most recent MiG-29M2 and its exportable derivative the MiG-35D, belong to the 4++ generation, he explained. Barkovsky further said that the Chinese fighter manufacturers have achieved notable progress with durability and reparability of their products. They have also improved their after-sales support system, which was deplorable a few years ago, he added.

Sergei Kornev, head of the aviation department of Rosonboronexport, told journalists at Airshow China 2012 that, with help from Belarussian advisors and specialized companies, the Chinese fighter manufacturers have managed to create a workable system of after-sales support. For its part, he continued, Russia has sold to China the documentation on overhaul and lifecycle support of the AL-31F series engines and helped it establish a well functioning system for keeping them serviceable.

Kornev added that during the next meeting of the Sino-Russian interstate committee for military-technical cooperation, which opened on November 21, Moscow and Beijing are expected to sign a number of agreements relating to intellectual property rights. Kornev said that this should further ease the transfer of Russian knowledge and expertise in the sphere of combat aviation and its after-sales support.

Engines account for more than 90 percent of all Russian aerospace exports to China. "In the past two years, we have signed large contracts with China for several hundred additional engines of the AL-31F, AL-31FN and D-30KP2 types. Shipments are now ongoing," Kornev said. The D-30KP2 powers the Ilyushin Il-76 transport, while the AL-31 family powers the Su-27/30/34 series of combat aircraft, and the Chinese J-11 derivative. In addition, Russia has delivered improved performance AL-31FN Series 3 and later turbofans for China's indigenous J-10 fighter.

Asked whether Russia has assisted China in its development of the WS-10A Tai Hang engine that is broadly similar to the AL-31F, Kornev answered that Russian specialists have not been briefed on this design and that Russia has never delivered AL-31F design documentation to China. Regarding the RD-93, which China mainly uses to power the JF-17 (FC-1) fighter, Kornev said that Russia has completed deliveries of 100 of the engine under a framework agreement for 500. Negotiations on the next batch are ongoing. "All juridical formalities regarding new sales are agreed upon; our negotiations are purely about commercial aspects, including price," he insisted.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2012-11-23/russian-officials-reveal-j-31-and-describe-engine-sales-china

 

[Armand2REP]

Again, stop pretending. You were calling J20 a flying brick, and that turned out false as well.

Actually that turned out very true. Video showed it takes over 40 seconds to get to military thrust and it turns like a brick.

You forget that while it has less wing area, J31 produces much more body lift than Rafale does and with its internal volume and reported range, obviously carries more fuel and thus weighs much more than Rafale does. You also forget that J31 doesn't have Rafale's handicap of having to carry weapons externally, thus much reduced drag at combat load and thus, once more. longer range.

J-31 has to carry external fuel tanks to even get in the same range so it has the same problem. With two inefficient engines to feed it has even worse range problems than the F-35 and the same poor wing loading. It is taking all the mistakes of the F-35 and multiplying them with poor performance.

One last thing, RD93 on J31 produces almost 3000lbf more than the M88 on a Rafale.

They have the same military thrust with M88 ECO being 35% more efficient. Feel free to waste fuel in afterburner, Rafale doesn't have to.

You know as well as I do that the RD-93's on J31 are gap fillers as are the 117's on Pak FA. Either way J31 will still be as fast, longer range and clearly a generation ahead of Rafale, why you're trying to compare them, I don't know....

How many years do we have to wait for Chinese turbofans? As long as I have been on the forums we have been talking about it, even longer the problem has existed. It sounds like another DRDO project.

 

[J20!]

Actually that turned out very true. Video showed it takes over 40 seconds to get to military thrust and it turns like a brick.



J-31 has to carry external fuel tanks to even get in the same range so it has the same problem. With two inefficient engines to feed it has even worse range problems than the F-35 and the same poor wing loading. It is taking all the mistakes of the F-35 and multiplying them with poor performance.



They have the same military thrust with M88 ECO being 35% more efficient. Feel free to waste fuel in afterburner, Rafale doesn't have to.



How many years do we have to wait for Chinese turbofans? As long as I have been on the forums we have been talking about it, even longer the problem has existed. It sounds like another DRDO project.

What video? Are you smoking your troll weed again?
j 20机动表演（手机版精彩瞬间）_视频在线观看 - 56.com

Anyone with even the tiniest knowledge in aerodynamics(or internet access to access expert analysis; eg APA Bill Sweetman) can tell the J20 is a low drag, VLO, high agility design, and according to its designer's- Dr. Song's- papers, TVC will make it even more so.

Hahaha! considering that we've never seen a pic or even a model of J31 with EFT's, I assume you're talking out of your ass as usual. Rafale carries a measly 4.7 tons of fuel internally. F35A carries 8.39 tons and F35C more than double Rafale's figure. J31 is actually larger in dimension than F35A is, so how exactly is it going to have a smaller IFC than Rafale's 4.7 tons?

Call it what you will, you could even say it was developed with Martian technology, but M88 still produces 16000lbf wet thrust. That's low by anyone's standard... At combat weight without EFT's and with its many, many external carriages, Rafale could never out-range a fifth gen fighter of J31's size at full internal fuel.

You can open a Rafale rocks thread somewhere else, but Rafale will never match any 5th gen fighter out there for the simple fact that by definition, its airframe is a generation behind...

 

[Armand2REP]

What video? Are you smoking your troll weed again?
j 20机动表演（手机版精彩瞬间）_视频在线观看 - 56.com

Already posted troll.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/30765-video-j-20-testing-turn-radius.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er61emE6fiE

Anyone with even the tiniest knowledge in aerodynamics(or internet access to access expert analysis; eg APA Bill Sweetman) can tell the J20 is a low drag, VLO, high agility design, and according to its designer's- Dr. Song's- papers, TVC will make it even more so.

Everyone with the tiniest knowledge is comparing it to the flying brick F-111, including Bill Sweetman. btw he writes for Ares blog @aviationweek, not APA. It is speculated to be a strike bomber or a BVR missile platform. The last thing it does is dog fight as it would lose against the most basic fighters.

Hahaha! considering that we've never seen a pic or even a model of J31 with EFT's, I assume you're talking out of your ass as usual. Rafale carries a measly 4.7 tons of fuel internally. F35A carries 8.39 tons and F35C more than double Rafale's figure. J31 is actually larger in dimension than F35A is, so how exactly is it going to have a smaller IFC than Rafale's 4.7 tons?

Rafale carries 7 tons of fuel internally WAH Wah wah...

Call it what you will, you could even say it was developed with Martian technology, but M88 still produces 16000lbf wet thrust. That's low by anyone's standard... At combat weight without EFT's and with its many, many external carriages, Rafale could never out-range a fifth gen fighter of J31's size at full internal fuel.

It produces 17k lbs of afterburner which is rarely used. 99.9% of the flight regime is at military thrust which Rafale dusts most fighter in T/W.

You can open a Rafale rocks thread somewhere else, but Rafale will never match any 5th gen fighter out there for the simple fact that by definition, its airframe is a generation behind...

I don't need to. This is an Indian forum and they already know it rocks your silly prototypes right out of their baby cradles. That is why GoI selected Rafale to kick yo azz.

 

[J20!]

Already posted troll.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/30765-video-j-20-testing-turn-radius.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er61emE6fiE

I'm not the one claiming that a jet from a previous generation is superior to a brand new 5th generation platform to sooth my ego. I remember you posting that thread. Calling a video of J2001 doing a fly-over residential areas "J20 testing turn radius" doesn't make it an actual turn rate test. I can also find videos of F22's doing turns, yet no one could call them "Turn Radius Tests"... smh...

Funny thing is, you have no comment on that high G turn video I posted... Could an F111 do that?

Everyone with the tiniest knowledge is comparing it to the flying brick F-111, including Bill Sweetman. btw he writes for Ares blog @aviationweek, not APA. It is speculated to be a strike bomber or a BVR missile platform. The last thing it does is dog fight as it would lose against the most basic fighters.

I know which blog Sweetman writes for... I didn't say he wrote for APA.

Carlo Kopp who does write for Air Power Australia wrote this though:

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-J-XX-Prototype.html

Any notion that an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet will be capable of competing against this Chengdu design in air combat, let alone penetrate airspace defended by this fighter, would be simply absurd. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet are both aerodynamically and kinematically quite inferior to the as presented J-XX/J-20 design, and even the shape based VLO capability in the J-XX/J-20, as presented, will effectively neutralise any sensor advantage either type might possess against earlier Russian and Chinese fighter designs.

People speculating that it was as large as F111, doesn't mean it handles like an F111. And considering that PAK FA is larger than J20, does it maneuver like a brick too? Stop trolling, its a bore. The only people calling J20 a flying brick are fan boys who don't know how aerodynamics work, eg you.

Rafale carries 7 tons of fuel internally WAH Wah wah...

It produces 17k lbs of afterburner which is rarely used. 99.9% of the flight regime is at military thrust which Rafale dusts most fighter in T/W.

Don't be pathetic. http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8912.html FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale

4750kg of fuel or 5325lt internal fuel capacity...

Next to RD93's what, 19000lbf? Trying to compare a fifth generation fighter and a late 4th generation fighter first flown in the 80's says a lot about your inferiority complex. Is it because both the country you're pretending to hail from and the country you're actually born from haven't produced any 5th gen fighter's at all?

 

[Yijiuliuer]

J20 2002 test flew with New AESA

 

[ersakthivel]

It's official。SAC has embarked on the research and development of 6th--generation fighter aircraft：

http://www.chinaequip.gov.cn/2012-11/19/c_131984596.htm

Page 2，last paragraph but one。

with 3rd generation rusian engines ofcourse.
they have finished the 5th gen planes with RD-33 and AL-31 engines and now moving to 6th gens perhaps.
What is the big deal in flying a few airframes with russian engines and crowning themselves as world beaters?

 

[Armand2REP]

I'm not the one claiming that a jet from a previous generation is superior to a brand new 5th generation platform to sooth my ego. I remember you posting that thread. Calling a video of J2001 doing a fly-over residential areas "J20 testing turn radius" doesn't make it an actual turn rate test. I can also find videos of F22's doing turns, yet no one could call them "Turn Radius Tests"... smh...

You are the one claiming a failed Russian design based on the 80s MiG 1.44 is superior to a 4++ gen western airframe with 5th gen avionics. You remember that thread yet you forgot it? Quite wasting my time requesting things I have posted several times already. A pilot pulling as tight a turn as he can is all the evidence we need of turn radius and the F-22 along with any 4th gen aircraft can fly circles around the flying bric J-20.

Funny thing is, you have no comment on that high G turn video I posted... Could an F111 do that?

Since when is a loop a high G turn?

I know which blog Sweetman writes for... I didn't say he wrote for APA.

You cited his name with APA...

Carlo Kopp who does write for Air Power Australia wrote this though:

Chengdu J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment

Kopp has a shameless vendetta against the F-35 which destroyed his credibility years ago. He is widely regarded as a sell out giving absurd interviews to the Russian press.

People speculating that it was as large as F111, doesn't mean it handles like an F111. And considering that PAK FA is larger than J20, does it maneuver like a brick too? Stop trolling, its a bore. The only people calling J20 a flying brick are fan boys who don't know how aerodynamics work, eg you.

How is PAK FA larger than the J-20? It is 50%as thin suggesting it weighs quite a bit less.

Next to RD93's what, 19000lbf? Trying to compare a fifth generation fighter and a late 4th generation fighter first flown in the 80's says a lot about your inferiority complex. Is it because both the country you're pretending to hail from and the country you're actually born from haven't produced any 5th gen fighter's at all?

How do you get 19000lbf from 8300kgf? You haven't even sold a 4th gen fighter much less made a 5th gen. Even PLAAF calls it 4th gen.

 

[p2prada]

In my opinion, I don't see any difference in how much a Rafale and a J-31 would weigh. I am willing to bet the J-31 is a 10 ton dry weight aircraft with ~4.5 tons of fuel(+ or - 0.5 tons). J-31 is definitely a lot fatter, but that should compensate for the internal bay and serpentine intakes when comparing internal volume.

Both are powered by a similarly rated engine, one at 50KN and 75KN and the other at 51KN and 83KN. So, not much of a difference here. Maybe one day J-31 will see 90KN engines, but even Rafale is expected to see it someday with the M88-3/K-10.

Apart from that Rafale is a 4th gen airframe while the J-31 is a 5th gen airframe. But we cannot forget, and is official, that the J-31 is meant for export and hence will be made with cost effectiveness in mind. So, there would be a world of difference between the avionics carried by Rafale compared to what will go in the J-31. Afterall, even electronics make the aircraft. I would say Dassault failed to get on the 5th gen bandwagon and is forced to make a direct jump to 6th gen. Comparatively SAC was smart enough to start working on an export version very early in order to beat Chengdu's current hold over the export market with 4th gen products.

 

[p2prada]

And considering that PAK FA is larger than J20, does it maneuver like a brick too?

How is PAK FA larger than the J-20? It is 50%as thin suggesting it weighs quite a bit less.

I don't know what you guys are trying to get at but PAKFA seems to be the largest 5th gen out there, but it will definitely be the lightest one out there.

F-22 is confirmed to be 19.7 tons. J-20 can be anything above or below that. Sweetman assumes it is more like F-111 (21.5 tonnes), Kopp assumes it is in the F-22 class, maybe lesser. Let CAC decide.

But PAKFA is expected to be around 15 tonnes(maybe 14 tonnes) considering it is supposed to carry around 12 tons of fuel and 7.5 tons of weapons and still be less than 34 tonnes at MTOW as compared to Su-27's 33 tonnes at MTOW.

As for how the PAKFA manages it, what can I say, it's Russian ingenuity.

 

[Armand2REP]

It is safe to assume that Shenyang doesn't have the metallurgical skills that Lockheed or Dassault has. Weight will be several points higher for the same mass. Go that this fighter is for export only, it will be another thunder blunder. Even worse coming out of Shenyang.

 

[cir]

Goodbye 2002，hello 2003:cool2:。

 

[cir]

J-2002 left for YL following her 40th flight at Chengdu。

Let's look forward to 03 and 04，especially the latter。:thumb:

 

[cir]

A 3-metre tall brick wall is being erected around CAC/132，so people will have a tougher time peeking at or taking shots of 2003、2004.。。。henceforth。

Like it or not，security is being tightened up due to the increasing sensitivity of activities carried inside what you know。