DF 21D vs Brahmos 2 Hypersonic ASCM - A Layman's Analysis

[Galaxy]

USA also has a hypersonic weapon that can strike anywhere in the world within 1 hour, maybe it will be tested when China uses DF-21?

15 Minutes max to turn China into Qing dynasty of 16th century.

http://defenceforumindia.com/united...us-army-tests-advanced-hypersonic-weapon.html

 

[LETHALFORCE]

well the chinese have their own gameplan so do US ,both are classified .Well one thing u must agree that both US & india & asean countries are getting nervous & desperate by the pace of Chinese defence moderniztion .

Chinese made the stupid moves like testing anti satellte weapons,making terratorial claims on others territory, developing anti-carrier missiles, proping up rogue nations ,nuclear proliferation etc..they brought this upon themselves now they have to bear everything they have coming to them. They want to challenge USA and USA will
give up the top spot?? NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LETHALFORCE]

US AC and other big ships are EMP resistant...... so are some of our ships.

Many warplanes (all 5th generation) are also EMP resistant and so is our LCA.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Chinese made the stupid moves like testing anti satellte weapons,making terratorial claims on others territory, developing anti-carrier missiles, proping up rogue nations ,nuclear proliferation etc..they brought this upon themselves now they have to bear everything they have coming to them. They want to challenge USA and USA will
give up the top spot?? NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok .man plz dont get excited ,we all know it Dont worry india & russia would develop more advanced weapons like PAK fa,brahmos 2 & wont allow china to dominate .
CHILL BUDDY CHILL8)

 

[LETHALFORCE]

ok .man plz dont get excited ,we all know it Dont worry india & russia would develop more advanced weapons like PAK fa,brahmos 2 & wont allow china to dominate .
CHILL BUDDY CHILL8)

I am not excited I have been reading about how China is going to take the number one spot, meanwhile I only see them operating in a Pussyllimanious manner thru use of proxies to do their dirty work.

 

[Drsomnath999]

15 Minutes max to turn China into Qing dynasty of 16th century.

http://defenceforumindia.com/united...us-army-tests-advanced-hypersonic-weapon.html

well this may be scramjet vehicle missile concept or reusable missile concept as stated by APJ kalam

 

[Kunal Biswas]

well buddy the fact is If ASBM really has to be successful it must have a seeker or else it is impossible to target a moving target especially an carrier ,They would develop most probably IIR seeker ,well about media hype they do it for every chinese weapon including J20 ,nuke subs, Anti satellite BM ,but the chinese do it,whether it is going to be effective time would say,meanwhile ,it can be feared as a dangerous weapon ,but needs more testing to confirm it.i have said the posible counter weapons & stealth disadvantage of DF 21d in the thread including it's high IR signature of it's RE entry vehicle which is also important for it' interception

IF or not, A reentering vehicle cant have IR seeker, Coz it cannot be on nose cone, Also the the seeker is nothing but a radar which cannot either place at front coz of the heating and plasma effect ?

I have no argument regarding interception not only IR but it will be visable trough optics and Radar its not stealth same goes for all Reentering vehicles..

yes brahmos 2 has 2 guidance sytem for mid course relies on INS (GPS/GLossnass) & for terminal guidance active/passive homing seeker. but the seeker for brahmos2 may be different from brahmos 1 i assume .well brahmos 2 may be stealthy i assume becoze if it is going to be smaller then leeser RCS than brahmos 1 also as i had stated above it may be built with 2 version
1.hydrocarbon based dualmode ramjet & scramjet powered platform

2. hydrogen powered
single mode scramjet powered vehicle .
so if latter one then it would surely have lesser RCS but may have higher IR signatures as hypersonic weapons would have enormous heat flying low in dense atmosphere produces a huge amount of heat by friction so it may be detected by IR sensor of target ship

well jamming issue was very backdated problem it has been solved now ,,also new softwares & guidance systems are being developed for BRahmos 2

I dont know abt Brhamos 2 guidance tech, As far as i know, It share same guidance as Bhramos 1, If so i would like to know and the link..

Brahmos 2 is not going to be smaller or larger, Their are no reports on the matter yet..
Ships relay on Optical and Radar guidance so their missiles, Their are no thermal seeker on Missiles or ship CIWS..

Jamming issues are solved which are known not classified in Enemy inventory, Though their are no reports..

 

[nimo_cn]

15 Minutes max to turn China into Qing dynasty of 16th century.

http://defenceforumindia.com/united...us-army-tests-advanced-hypersonic-weapon.html

As if India is immune to American weapons.

 

[tony4562]

The so-called Brahmos missile is for all practical purposes a rebadged russian P-800 Yakhont with range limited to 290km. India is struggling mightily with virtually all missile projects that are not joint-efforts with a foreign partner. Most of them represent first-time effort for India in their respective categories, so understandably they are very basic with some being a straight copy of foreign designs from the 70's. Yet after decades of development most of them are still not ready and won't be ready anytime soon despite of some feel-good news from time to time. This tells us that India's contribution to a sohpisticated design like Brahmos or rather Yakhont is very limited. I wouldn't go that far to suggest that India only brought in green backs and paint, but the truth is probably not all that different. Russia of course is diplomatic and will never reveal what India actually contributed in terms of R&D just like China would not say anything negative about Pakistan regarding the FC-1 project. But this won't change the fact that Russia controls the so-called join venture pretty much from end to end. And Russia won't hesitate to remind the world of this fact by for example selling the Yakhont to Indonesia without even informing India.

So the title of the discussion should be changed to DF-21D vs future Yakhont variants. Face it, without Russia leading the way there won't be Brahmos2.

 

[SPIEZ]

Why is a BALLISTIC MISSILE compared to an hypersonic CRUISE MISSILE ....?

 

[Immanuel]

well Brahmos is indeed an Indo russian venture but Brahmos wouldn't nearly be as advanced without state of the art India made seeker tech and software. Initially Russia is making the brahmos engine but now They will be made in India. LRCM little known long range cruise missile with top speed of mach 3.2 and range of 600km is on the cards. Brahmos-2 will also have Indian seeker tech, design and propulsion will also need lot of Indian work. actually bot parties are just as important for the venture. With large orders, the Brahmos-2 will also end up being entirely made in India as well eventually.

 

[Drsomnath999]

The so-called Brahmos missile is for all practical purposes a rebadged russian P-800 Yakhont with range limited to 290km. India is struggling mightily with virtually all missile projects that are not joint-efforts with a foreign partner. Most of them represent first-time effort for India in their respective categories, so understandably they are very basic with some being a straight copy of foreign designs from the 70's. Yet after decades of development most of them are still not ready and won't be ready anytime soon despite of some feel-good news from time to time

if we have one or 2 more morron like u then this forum would turn from a defence forum to a circus forum

Well what shit are u talking that "India is struggling mightily with virtually all missile projects that are not joint-efforts with a foreign partner."
hey useless have u ever read any defence related website about indian missiles .Simply knowing nothing about missiles & posting such useless posts Well what missile project apart from cancelled TRishul project are we struggling kindly tell .

what did u say ? ? "Well we are basic in copying in technology of 70's" hey fool do u know about a missile name shaurya & if u dont know then type it's name in google & search it


& Look people see who is telling us that we are copying technolgy from foreign countries & that tooo of 70's ,but the fact is that the whole world knows what great copycats u guys are & everyone knows ur country doesnt have the technological might to build it's own underwear & this shameless guy is accusing us of copying.I would die of laughing.

.

This tells us that India's contribution to a sohpisticated design like Brahmos or rather Yakhont is very limited. I wouldn't go that far to suggest that India only brought in green backs and paint, but the truth is probably not all that different. Russia of course is diplomatic and will never reveal what India actually contributed in terms of R&D just like China would not say anything negative about Pakistan regarding the FC-1 project. But this won't change the fact that Russia controls the so-called join venture pretty much from end to end. And Russia won't hesitate to remind the world of this fact by for example selling the Yakhont to Indonesia without even informing India.

hey man do u think india is pakistan ,just adding a pakistani flag label in their imported chinese missilesDo u know it was india which designed brahmos to a world's only operational supersonic BRAHMOS LACM which was primarily an AsCM ,& u are telling India only brought in green backs and paint,

,May god give u divine wisdom
Why would china say negative about pakistan and also what would they say about FC1, infact after few years pakistan would say negative about china about what crap weapons u guys have sold to them that even god cant say how long would it last after it crahed so hopelessly in attock

So the title of the discussion should be changed to DF-21D vs future Yakhont variants. Face it, without Russia leading the way there won't be Brahmos2.

thats why we are jointly developing it with a licencesd agreement with equal contribution from both sides unlike u guys who do it without a license agreement ie Ctrl + C & CTRL +V

 

[Galaxy]

Relax somnath. This tony4562 is Pakistani. 8) Check his Islamist and Jihadi view

 

[Drsomnath999]

Relax somnath. This tony4562 is Pakistani. 8) Check his Islamist and Jihadi view

oops my mistake ,

 

[tony4562]

Nag, Akash, Trishul, Astra, which of these have exactly been a huge success? Some of the missiles never made to the production line, and those that did, only a token amount ever produced. And if you tell me that Akash has nothing to do with SA6, then I guess you are either not telling the truth or you are blind. Don't forget, india the wanna-be super power, is still importing over 70% of all her military equipment, including rifles from Bulgaria, bullets from Romania and oddly enough body bags from Israel. A simple helicopter like the Dhruv, often regarded as a success story of India's indigenous effort, has 90 percent foreign content. These are not exactly confidence-boosting signs that India has finally arrived. Wishful thinking is OK, particuarly in a forum like this, but ground reality can be quite harsh.

 

[Drsomnath999]

IF or not, A reentering vehicle cant have IR seeker, Coz it cannot be on nose cone, Also the the seeker is nothing but a radar which cannot either place at front coz of the heating and plasma effect ?

I have no argument regarding interception not only IR but it will be visable trough optics and Radar its not stealth same goes for all Reentering vehicles..

see bro ,if DF 21 d is going to be a ASBM then it must have some sort of terminal guidance or else it cant target any moving target .So either MMW radar or IIR seeker or may be perhaps laser guidance may be another option
& regarding heat or plasma effect ur correct but here is an interesting article how they can do it .
Geoffrey Forden • DF-21 Delta: Some Early Thoughts
well ur correct about radar but Aegis or ship based BMD relies on FLIR sensor which detects IR signature of incoming ballistic missile so it may be more important i assume SM-3 Interceptor

I dont know abt Brhamos 2 guidance tech, As far as i know, It share same guidance as Bhramos 1, If so i would like to know and the link..

well ins coupled with (GPS / glossnass) guidance sytem may be same for both of them ,but the seeker part may be differnent as it is a hypersonic missile ,& is under development
WHAT

Brahmos 2 is not going to be smaller or larger, Their are no reports on the matter yet..

how can u miss that it has already been posted in many defence websites that brahmos 2 is going to be smaller
Brahmos-2 - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur
Brahmos Missile Marks Tenth Year, New Hypersonic Variants on the Cards

Ships relay on Optical and Radar guidance so their missiles, Their are no thermal seeker on Missiles or ship CIWS.

well bro SEA ram missile.or The RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) is a small, lightweight, infrared homing surface-to-air missile in use by the American, German, South Korean, Greek, Turkish, Saudi and Egyptian navies. yes it uses both guidance EM & IR so IR signature is important
RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
Well IR sinature is very important for ship's point missile defence system

Jamming issues are solved which are known not classified in Enemy inventory, Though their are no reports..

well all i can say that jamming issue has been solved but technology is evolving fast there may be new generations of jammers so we cant discard it

 

[Drsomnath999]

Nag, Akash, Trishul, Astra, which of these have exactly been a huge success? Some of the missiles never made to the production line, and those that did, only a token amount ever produced. And if you tell me that Akash has nothing to do with SA6, then I guess you are either not telling the truth or you are blind.

HEY u MR false namer troll, i told u earliear to leave trishul as it was a cancelled project .still u stated it .why Akash is nt sucess & what is ur criteria for a missile to be successful kindly post ,A nag is going to be inducted & air laucnched version is also going to be inducted .& astra is in developmental stage & is a recent project apart from all it's test only 1 was unsuccesful rest all was a succesful hit .Just becoz akash utilizes the same propulsion like the Russian 2K12 Kub (SA-6 Gainful), an integrated ramjet-rocket propulsion system, which provides thrust for the missile throughout its entire flight it becomes a russian copy man either u r an illterate or u a dumbass who dont know the meaning of copy .JUst read this article
Akash (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't forget, india the wanna-be super power, is still importing over 70% of all her military equipment, including rifles from Bulgaria, bullets from Romania and oddly enough body bags from Israel. A simple helicopter like the Dhruv, often regarded as a success story of India's indigenous effort, has 90 percent foreign content.

YES we are importing 70 % equipment but we are not lucky like u guys that also imports ballistic missiles ,cruise missiles jets ,subs & nuclear weapons from ur dear friend C%%%%A & sticks it's label on it in the name of indigenious .

Well where the hell u got this information that Dhruv has more than 90% foreign content kindly post the link

These are not exactly confidence-boosting signs that India has finally arrived. Wishful thinking is OK, particuarly in a forum like this, but ground reality can be quite harsh.

listen u paki troll dont spoil my mood if i start bashing u ,u would wet ur diapers plz leave this thread now i am sincerly requesting u .

 

[The Messiah]

You think he has aukad to buy diapers ?

 

[Neil]

You think he has aukad to buy diapers ?

china soft loan pe dega na sir....

 

[J20!]

Firstly Drsomnath, this is an inspired thread, thankyou for providing such an excellent platform for discussion.


But then looking at these two anti-ship platforms, (from a neutral standpoint, ie, forgeting that one is Chinese and one is Russian/Indian), I would have to go for the DF21D, and not because its Chinese, but simply because of its capability. Let me explain:


In my opinion, the two differ very much in function, with each doing very well within its own sphere. The DF21D is designed to keep any CBG at arms length. Chinese policy is to employ area denial against a more advanced millitary, in todays reality: the US Navy. Denying the opposing power the use of his most flexible and powerful conventional units: CBG's, within China's immediate sphere of influence. A 2000+ km range DF21D does not allow any admiral in his right mind to move his most valuable targets into the kill zone. Even with in-flight refueling, air assets from the carrier would have a limited ability to operate in that area, contesting the air space with Chinese fighters who enjoy better support in terms of refueling and AWACS as well as possessing a definite numerical advantage.


Thus the DF21D basically removes US Navy CBG's from the equation, only leaving them with the SSN and SSGN option, who mind you, would then have to operate in SSK and SSN infested waters, whilst also being targeted by ASW air and surface assets.


The question then arises, can you do the same thing with a hypersonic CM with a 280km range? The answer is a definite NO. Sure it is much more flexible in terms of launch platforms, but lets analyse them.


Submarines: This is the ultimate in stealth targeting of surface assets. But then the cruise missile is not fire and forget, the target must be painted for them for until they are in range to identify the target themselves. This means, the sub must either paint the target itself with its surface search radar (which implies surfacing, and is thus extremely unadvisable), or relying on other assets to identify the target for them.
In this sense, the CM is the same as the DF21D in needing other assets to find and guide it to its target before it enters its terminal phase, implying that the use of either MPA's or helicopters. The notion that an MPA or an AEW helicopter can get close enough to identify an AIRCRAFT CARRIER, which operates within layers and layers of AAW protection is as I'm sure you realize, absurd. I'm not sure if the Indian navy can find and track surface vessels operating in international waters using space based assets, but this is how the Soviet navy planned to provide guidance when using sub and Kirov cruiser launched 400+km range Granit CM against US aircraft carriers in conjuction with long range bear MP aircraft.


The same applies for surface naval assets such as frigates or destroyers and air assets, ie. closing to within 290 km of a CBG, with carrrier-borne AWACS and destroyer and frigate pickets observing hundreds of kilometers around the carrier would be suicide in the face of precision munition and anti-ship cruise misslie equiped carrier-borne fighters.


Thus the hypersonic CM would be more useful if the opposing CBG was operating within its users EEZ, which is highly unlikely since CBG's operate far out to sea, well out the Brahmos's 290 km range.


That's why I conclude that the DF21D would be the more survivable option, (due mostly to its tremendous range).


Any thoughts?