Indian diplomat arrested, handcuffed in US for visa fraud

[Ray]

Are you saying that at no point, airing views in a forum as this doesnt become disruptive. Abuse isnt the only way to disrupt a discussion. Hence the name, trolling.
I think the mods do much to make sure, that discussion moves along 'forward' in good and mature way. Repeating already disproven facts and repeating like a broken piano is trolling. It is imperative that this discussion moves forward in a proper manner.

I am saying that if one does not agree with a view expressed, one should have the knowledge to refute that view with facts.

 

[ladder]

This is what is called response.

The US administration dare not do this China or to Russia. It is reported that when the Russian ambassador's car was towed away in Washington DC, the next day, six American embassy cars in Moscow were picked up.

M Ratan -- A Common Indian's Viewpoint: Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade's humiliation in New York

 

[LalTopi]

true but our C130 might be without spear parts. That is the problem therefore that delay. China and Russia dont import arms from them.

Moreover India imports arms from the US because it wants to, in order to get a strategic edge over China, where the existential threat lies. China is also an existential threat to the US in the 30 40 year timeframe. As Kautilya said the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So let's not get carried away with anti Americansm, for what is at heart an issue associated with minor over zealous bureacrats in the State Department and Local Prosecuters office. The goal should be to manage the short term transgressions without impacting the strategic picture.

 

[happy]

I have posted in this thread that I believe DK should have her day in court and that she should further bring a civil case in regards to her alleged mistreatment.

What I also believe is that a response by India to make every American consular employee a living hell would be pointless.

Sir, While I might at some point agree with you, I have to remind you that America does not take any request for status quo seriously until it faces the heat. I also have to remind you of how the Russians made 6 American diplomatic cars disappear in response to one car apprehended by America which resulted in a status quo and happiness everywhere. So my point being that your view does not hold any merit if we want America to respond on our terms.

 

[Free Karma]

Moreover India imports arms from the US because it wants to, in order to get a strategic edge over China, where the existential threat lies. China is also an existential threat to the US in the 30 40 year timeframe. As Kautilya said the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So let's not get carried away with anti Americansm, for what is at heart an issue associated with minor over zealous bureacrats in the State Department and Local Prosecuters office. The goal should be to manage the short term transgressions without impacting the strategic picture.

This is not minor, Kerry knew about this, and let it happen, plus showing complete disregard for an Indian courts orders, in Indian citizens is not exactly small either.



To me, this feels like a frustrated outburst over many issues that have built up over the years.
They want Jamat in B'desh, we want Hasina, and wont back off.
They want us to not build the Iran port, we are building it.
They want us to not buy oil from Iran, we increased our purchases.
Their Pharma companies are angry at us because of the patent rule ,Which was one of the best things this govt did imo. (yes they did some good things). and not only us, Indonesia,Brazil and China are following suit with similar laws, so it hurts their markets a lot.
Recent WTO arguments.
Picking the Rafale.
FDI, not opening up our markets enough for them
The MV Ohio Seaman Guard was found off the coast of TN, might have been the precipitating point.
I'm guessing they are also quite angry with the Kudankulam plant too, most protests were funded through ngos, which have been banned since. Not sure if the MV ohio was associated with the plant, but if was quite close to it.


So if you look at the relationship, apart from the transaction side of things, strategic interests have been quite different, on many issues, and the timing of the arrest also came after a meeting with foreign sec. which didnt go to well.

 

[LalTopi]

This is not minor, Kerry knew about this, and let it happen, plus showing complete disregard for an Indian courts orders, in Indian citizens is not exactly small either.

I do not hold with the view that the US is a smooth well oiled machine with all parts working in unison. The reality is that different departments have their own agenda's and petty bureacrats try to assert their own views. This is not that much different from any other democracy (including India!). I think that there are plenty of people in the US (including the DOD I believe) that would like to string up the people responsible for this mess, but are restricted by the legal framework. At the worst case, I concur with Mr Ewald, let DK have her day in court, it will just make the State Department and Local Prosecutors look stpid.

 

[Adux]

I am saying that if one does not agree with a view expressed, one should have the knowledge to refute that view with facts.

Brigadier,

When I raise a point, you counter the point with facts and supporting evidences, yet I continue repeating it multiple times..thereby trolling, winding up other members, disrupting the line and course of discussion, disturbing new information and new thoughts being decimated ..along with that be insensitive to indian pov on an Indian forum, you deem that acceptable? In every other forum this will result ban or warnings.

 

[ladder]

I do not hold with the view that the US is a smooth well oiled machine with all parts working in unison. The reality is that different departments have their own agenda's and petty bureacrats try to assert their own views. This is not that much different from any other democracy (including India!). I think that there are plenty of people in the US (including the DOD I believe) that would like to string up the people responsible for this mess, but are restricted by the legal framework. At the worst case, I concur with Mr Ewald, let DK have her day in court, it will just make the State Department and Local Prosecutors look stpid.

Why do you want her to be subjected to USA justice system?
What merit that holds for you?

Not contesting that in the worst case she may have to be subjected to their laws.

 

[Adux]

I do not hold with the view that the US is a smooth well oiled machine with all parts working in unison. The reality is that different departments have their own agenda's and petty bureacrats try to assert their own views. This is not that much different from any other democracy (including India!). I think that there are plenty of people in the US (including the DOD I believe) that would like to string up the people responsible for this mess, but are restricted by the legal framework. At the worst case, I concur with Mr Ewald, let DK have her day in court, it will just make the State Department and Local Prosecutors look stpid.

Fact, that State Department, US Marshals and District Attorney's office were all working together. I might give you that State Department might not have given a go ahead in the strip search or was unaware of it.

Also this is not some trivial matter, to have DK in US Court, where she will not get a fair trail. DK is not some guinea pig to prove US wrong, she is an Indian Diplomat, her safety is India's responsibility

 

[Adux]

Watch this, Former Amb. Hardeep Puri on this issue

.

 

[ladder]

Read more at: Devyani case: After Kerry and Powell, US boychoir says 'sorry' : Americas, News - India Today

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What kind of nutjobs are posted in USA embassy in New-Delhi to have come to a conclusion that we would oppose a boy-choir from USA?

In the hind-sight it's good that import of tax free alcohol has been restricted by MEA. The person holding cultural desk at the USA embassy would remain sane for a lot more time to do what he/she is sent to do, study the culture of India ( his job also includes making other understand cultures of US), understanding of which was found severely lacking in the original incident and even now in this incident.

It seems I wasn't wrong about the cultural desk in USA consulate/embassy in India being incompetent, take a look, this kind of goof-up happens if you are not sensitized about this matters.

'Dirty' Skin Indians - Outrage Over American Diplomat - YouTube

Also I wasn't wrong about the fact that cultural insensitivity is the problem. The consulate officer felt the same too.

U.S. diplomat caught in row joins cultural sensitivity course - The Hindu

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This course should be made compulsory for every diplomat/consul officer (from USA) posted in India.

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But, to every body who thought, India would take any kind of Insult lying down

Racist Remarks Row: U.S. Diplomat to Leave Chennai

CHENNAI: U.S. vice-consul Maureen Chao, who was caught in a row for her remarks of "dirty and dark" Tamilians, has decided to leave India.

http://www.siliconindia.com/shownew...iplomat_to_Leave_Chennai-nid-89564-cid-1.html

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It was done in a way where the diplomat doesn't face any harassment.

 

[Adux]

I would not have anything short of Americans arrested and cavity searched. I will not be happy without putting the fear of grim reaper that is the Indian law on every US Mission Staff in India. They should be pissing in their pants to go against the Indian people.

 

[Adux]

Husain Haqqani on America's Diplomat Shame
The arrest and mistreatment of an Indian consul in New York is particularly galling considering how frequently America's own emissaries benefit from diplomatic immunity.
The recent diplomatic tiff over mistreatment of an Indian diplomat by U.S. law enforcement authorities is neither about rule of law nor about diplomatic immunity. It involves the issue of courtesy for representatives of foreign governments, which is essential for the conduct of international relations.

131219-indian-consul-arrest-haqqani-tease
India's deputy consul general Devyani Khobragade. (Mohammed Jaffer/AP)
Americans are often the most significant beneficiaries of courtesies, over and above the immunities guaranteed by the letter of law that governments extend to each other.

India's Deputy Consul-General in New York, Devyani Khobragade, was arrested on charges of visa fraud for allegedly paying her maid less than the amount that formed the basis of the maid's employment visa. U.S. marshals arrested Khobragade outside her kids' school, publicly handcuffed her and subjected her to strip and cavity searches before detaining her with common criminals.

The U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Preet Bharara, has defended Khobragade's arrest on grounds of the crime she allegedly committed against her poor helpless maid. Secretary of State John Kerry has apologized to India over the manner of Khobragade's arrest while defending the need to implement American laws.

The Vienna Conventions on Diplomatic and Consular Immunities provide different levels of immunity for diplomats and consular representatives. Consular officials are protected against arrest only for acts committed in the course of their duties.

The U.S. position is that as a consul, Khobragade was not immune from arrest for allegedly under-paying her maid. But even if that were the case, Bharara's decision to treat her without regard for her status as a representative of a foreign, friendly government reflected the prosecutor's over-exuberance straight out of an episode of Law and Order.

Khobragade's guilt or the nature of her immunity is a matter for a court to decide. Treating her courteously was necessary to ensure that American diplomats and consular representatives are protected and treated kindly abroad.

As Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, I found myself at the center of a similar but much worse row in January 2011 when Raymond Davis killed two men in a crowded street in the city of Lahore.

The U.S. claimed that Davis carried a diplomatic passport and therefore enjoyed diplomatic immunity. Pakistan's Foreign Office found that Davis' name had been included on the list of diplomats serving in Pakistan only after he had committed the murders, which did not extend him immunity under the Vienna Convention.

As Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, I found myself at the center of a similar but much worse row in January 2011 when Raymond Davis killed two men in a crowded street in the city of Lahore.
His job description, as an adviser at the U.S. consulate in Lahore, also entitled him to consular and not full diplomatic immunity.

Pakistan's government could not free a killer without due process. But once he had been identified as a U.S. government functionary, our government ensured that Davis was treated with courtesy. American officials were immediately provided access to Davis and he was not subjected to a strip search. Once The Guardian revealed that he was, in fact, a CIA contractor, special arrangements were made for his security in prison in case other inmates might attempt to hurt him.

The Pakistani government avoided embarrassing President Obama, who had been misled into publicly insisting on Davis' diplomatic status.

Eventually, Davis was set free by a Pakistani court after his lawyers reached a financial settlement with the victims' families under Pakistan's Islamic 'blood money' law. Kerry, then Chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, travelled to Pakistan to convey America's regret over the loss of life caused by Davis, which tempered the public anger over the prospect of an accused murderer being set free.

We treated the Raymond Davis affair as a matter affecting relations between Pakistan and the United States, and not merely as the crime it was. I was as outraged as anyone else over the fact that a hot-headed individual had killed two people in a crowded market without any identifiable threat to his life. But Davis was entitled to due process of law and until all legal options were exhausted his treatment could affect U.S.-Pakistan relations.

The U.S. prosecutor and marshals involved in arresting Khobragade and the State Department officials who signed off on her arrest, failed in being sensitive to the international dimension of an alleged domestic crime.

The ends of justice would not have been compromised if Khobragade had been treated with courtesies similar to those extended by Pakistan to Davis. American diplomats are extended considerations over and beyond the law in most countries.

Almost every U.S. diplomatic facility abroad is surrounded by barriers often erected on public property that violate municipal ordinances. American diplomats are allowed to board flights and exit airports through different exits than other passengers. These facilities protect U.S. government representatives in an era of terrorist threats.

American law enforcers need to be mindful of these global realities before setting off another storm while arresting a foreign diplomat or consular agent.

Husain Haqqani on America's Diplomat Shame - The Daily Beast

 

[LalTopi]

Watch this, Former Amb. Hardeep Puri on this issue

.

I agree with Mr. Puri. The Indian political establishment should always have sought reciprocity. you don't have to be a genius to understand that you will gain no respect from enemies or friends if you are forever bending over backwards.

 

[ladder]

To say something and then regret might be a characteristic trait of US diplomats

An incident from 2011.

On Tuesday evening, a US diplomat in Hyderabad was forced to apologise for her insensitive remarks on radio tags.

Juliet Wurr, who handles Public Affairs at the US Consulate in Hyderabad had told NDTV that the group of 18 students being made to wear ankle bracelets in America should choose to see it as a bang-on-trend moment. "Let me tell you they are very hep and happening because many of our movie stars and celebrities choose the anklets rather than sitting in a red jumpsuit in prison."

It may not seem possible, but Ms Wurr then went on to make an even more offensive remark. "It's funny people getting upset about this. I don't know about your servants ...but my servant has big heavy silver anklets...that look a heck of a lot more uncomfortable and binding."

Two Tri Valley University students detained in US centre | NDTV.com

 

[ladder]

I think we should do something similar to this.

Russian FSB detains U.S. diplomat accused of spying

MOSCOW (AP) — Russia's security services say they detained a U.S. diplomat they claim is a CIA agent after they caught him red-handed trying to recruit a Russian agent.

The FSB said in a statement Tuesday that Ryan Fogle, a third secretary at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, was carrying special technical equipment, disguises, written instructions and a large sum of money when he was detained overnight.

Text Size



State television showed pictures of a man said to be Fogle sitting at a desk in FSB offices. The FSB said Fogle was handed over to U.S. Embassy officials.

No immediate comment was available from the U.S. Embassy. Ambassador Michael McFaul, who was doing a question-and-answer session on Twitter when the detention was announced, said he would not comment.

Russian FSB detains U.S. diplomat accused of spying | us7.com

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We can go a step further, during the detention period.

 

[ladder]

The Return of the Ugly American

Shashi Tharoor
Shashi Tharoor is India's Minister of State for Human Resource Development. His most recent book is Pax Indica: India and the World of the 21st Century

NEW DELHI – Nearly a month after American authorities arrested India's deputy consul general in New York, Devyani Khobragade, outside her children's school and charged her with paying her Indian domestic worker a salary below the minimum wage, bilateral relations remain tense. India's government has reacted with fury to the mistreatment of an official enjoying diplomatic immunity, and public indignation has been widespread and nearly unanimous. So, has an era of steadily improving ties between the two countries come to an end.

Judging from Indian leaders' statements, it would certainly seem so. India's mild-mannered Prime Minister Manmohan Singh declared that Khobragade's treatment was "deplorable." National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon called her arrest "despicable" and "barbaric," and Foreign Minister Salman Khurshid refused to take a conciliatory phone call from US Secretary of State John Kerry.

Emotions have run high in India's Parliament and on television talk shows as well. Writing to her diplomatic colleagues after her arrest, Khobragade, who has denied the charges against her, noted that she "broke down many times," owing to "the indignities of repeated handcuffing, stripping, and cavity searches, swabbing," and to being held "with common criminals and drug addicts." A former Indian foreign minister, Yashwant Sinha, has publicly called for retaliation against gay American diplomats in India, whose sexual orientation and domestic arrangements are now illegal after a recent Supreme Court ruling. The government has not taken him seriously, but his suggestion indicates how inflamed passions have become.

Some retaliation has occurred. The initial American rationale (that foreign consuls in the US enjoy a lower level of immunity than other diplomats) led India's government to re-examine privileges enjoyed by US consular officials that are unavailable to their Indian counterparts in the US. These privileges – including full-fledged diplomatic ID cards, access to the restricted customs areas of airports, tax-free shipments of items for personal consumption, and no questions asked about the terms of their employment of local domestic staff – were swiftly withdrawn. The cardinal principle of diplomatic relations is reciprocity, and India realized that it had been naïve in extending courtesies to the US that it was not receiving in return.

Likewise, the police have removed bollards and barriers that the US Embassy had unilaterally placed on the street in front of its complex in New Delhi, creating an obstacle to free circulation on a public road that India had tolerated in a spirit of friendship. (The government has, however, reiterated its commitment to the US Embassy's security, even reinforcing the police presence outside.)

Tempers remain inflamed, with US Ambassador Nancy Powell, in a New Year's message to Indians, ruefully acknowledging that ties have been "jolted by very different reactions to issues involving one of your consular officers and her domestic worker." Kerry has also expressed "regret" over the incident. But the US has shown no signs of moving to drop the charges to defuse the crisis.

Indians remain bewildered that the US State Department would so willfully jeopardize a relationship that American officials had been describing as "strategic" over a practice routinely followed by foreign diplomats for decades. Most developing-country diplomats take domestic staff with them on overseas assignments, paying them a good salary by their national standards, plus a cost differential for working aboard. In Khobragade's case, perquisites included a fully furnished room in a pricey Manhattan apartment, a television set, a mobile phone, medical insurance, and tickets home.

The cash part of the salary may be low by US standards – Khobragade herself, as a mid-ranking Indian diplomat, earns less than what the US considers a fair wage – but, with the other benefits, the compensation is attractive for a domestic helper. More to the point, Khobragade did not find her maid in the US labor market and "exploit" her; she brought her from India to help her in her representational duties, on an official passport, with a US visa given for that purpose. In almost no other country are local labor laws applied in such a manner to a foreign diplomat's personal staff.

Privately, US diplomats express frustration at their helplessness in the face of theatrical grandstanding by the ambitious federal prosecutor, Preet Bharara, an Indian-American who has launched a series of high-profile cases against Indians in America. For once, however, the zealous Bharara seems to have slipped up, because Khobragade was arrested at a time when she enjoyed full diplomatic (not just consular) immunity as an adviser to India's United Nations mission during the General Assembly. The State Department's handling of the matter – which included approval of Khobragade's arrest – has been, to say the least, inept.


Worse, just before the arrest, the maid's family was spirited out of India on US visas for victims of human trafficking. The implication that an Indian diplomat in a wage dispute with her maid is guilty of human trafficking understandably riles Indian diplomats as much as the treatment of Khobragade after she was detained. The American habit of imposing its worldview self-righteously on others is deeply unwelcome. To most Indians, common discourtesy cannot be repackaged as moral virtue.

Indian-American relations had been strengthening, owing to both sides' shared commitment to democracy, common concerns about China, and increasing trade and investment. The Khobragade affair suggests, however, that all of this is not enough: sustaining a strategic partnership requires, above all, mutual respect.

India had handled American diplomats with a generosity of spirit that it felt the bilateral relationship deserved. Now, with the same spirit shown to be lacking from the other side, the friendship has suffered. Until the US displays appropriate deference to the sensitivities, pride, and honor of other peoples and cultures, it will continue to be resented around the world.

Read more at Shashi Tharoor says that US authorities' arrest in December of India's deputy consul general in New York has profoundly damaged bilateral relations. - Project Syndicate

 

[ladder]

Official Pakistan Position

22:3 HRS IST
New Delhi, Jan 6 (PTI) Pakistan today sided with India on the row over the treatment meted out to senior diplomat Devyani Khobragade in the US and said such treatment should not be meted to any official of another country.

"In the entire world, there is only one way...there is a long history to this...the respect for Vienna Convention...

fullstory

 

[ladder]

In a related development

JS polls Bangladesh's constitutional requirement: India

Terming yesterday's parliamentary polls as "constitutional requirement", India today reiterated its position that the "democratic processes must be allowed to take their own course in Bangladesh."

"Elections in Bangladesh on 5th January were a constitutional requirement. They are a part of the internal and constitutional process of Bangladesh," Syed Akbaruddin, official spokesperson of India's Ministry of External Affairs, said a day after the 10th general election of its closest neighbour.

It is for the people of Bangladesh to decide their own future and choose their representatives in a manner that responds to their aspirations, he added.

"Violence cannot and should not determine the way forward. The democratic processes must be allowed to take their own course in Bangladesh," Akbaruddin, also a joint secretary, said.

JS polls Bangladesh's constitutional requirement: India

 

[Adux]

A very informed debate.